Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember he's a double world champion :idunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by baptie
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember he's a double world champion :idunno:Quote:
Originally Posted by baptie
Mmmmmmmmm lets see now ..................... F1 without Ferrari .................... nope still can't see itQuote:
Originally Posted by The Dogfather
Not a lotta folk on here like Ferrari me thinks :rolleyes:
Maybe wear the Prancing Horse T-shirt on the next NMS run me thinks :hand:
FF :thumbs up:
As an avid Ferrari fan I am sick at the outcome yesterday. Massa's face at the post race interview said it all. Ferrari management should be ashamed of themselves. Massa should have had the top spot. Clear orders given. Not so sure that Alonso should be punished as it was not really the drivers fault. Management should be kicked in the arse! Fantastic they got a 1, 2 but it was not the happy win I wanted. Feel sorry for Massa.
Ok take your points on board (another Ferrari fan :thumbs up:)Quote:
Originally Posted by coopert21ceb
Lets look at the what if's then. Ferrari decide not to intervene & Alonso snuggles up the @rse of Massa, who by now does not have the pace. Vettel then does like wise behind Alonso. Now what have we got the potentail for here ...................... mistakes, BIG mistakes that could jepordise the 1-2 finish that Ferrari SO badly needed.
The way I see it is that Ferrari BADLY needed the points & decided (Massa's choice btw :rolleyes:) to let the faster guy take the lead in order to maximise the chances of finishing 1st (as a team) & hope to secure the 2nd as well.
Job done ................................. next :yes nod:
(Interesting points from DC yesterday ............... back in the early days, if a driver was struggling he would sometimes take his team mates car to see if he could go faster :thumbs up:)
Mistakes? You mean competitive racing don't you, god forbid that should happen between Ferraris.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crombers
When was the last time two red cars raced each other like Senna and Prost, like Alonso and Hamilton, like Button and Barricello etc.
Ferrari are wrong for F1 IMO. I want to see racing between drivers, especially when they have equal machinery not gifting someone the lead.
wey hey great to hear from a like minded ferrarista i think you hit that nail right on the head.as for calling ferrari cheats is beyond me when only a couple of seasons back the silver ferrari got a slap on the wrist for trying to spy on ferrari and never got disqualified from f1 so how on earth you can expect ferrari to be booted out,problem with formula one is that everyone is out to beat ferrari.......not an easy job when your dealing with the best!!....Quote:
Originally Posted by Crombers
here here crombers good man i'll give you a loan of my 20ft flag you can fly it from your car ariel lol lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Crombers
Did you hear the radio communications made to Massa when they advised that Alonso was faster ...... the guy making the call ended by saying sorry to Massa kinda sums it all don't you think even Ferrari knew what they were asking was not fair to Massa never mind anything else the point is Massa was in the lead Alonso should have raced and driven to try pass massa I thought that was the whole point to racing.
Actually, Mclaren were booted out of the constructors championship, they received a massive fine $100m and had to have their car inspected to prove that it had no Ferrari intellectual property on it. I'm very surprised how little you know about F1 for a Ferrari fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
Their drivers were only allowed to compete because they were leading the championship, during that season there was a number of debatable rulings that meant that a Ferrari driver ended up winning the drivers championship. I still think Hamilton strange gearbox problem in the final race was very suspect.
i have to side with Paul on this one the red team did wrong face it they should no have told massa to move over and let the twat thro but they did
"alonso is faster then you DO U UNDERSTAND?" and then gos on to say sorry to massa
so what if alsonso is faster let him pass as any other racer on the track would do
i just hope they get striped of the race win !!!! as it was unfair and broke the rules !
Very poor show by Ferrari. They cheated not only by breaking the rules but also by spoiling the racing for all the spectators. A $100k fine is nothing, they should have been given grid penalties for the next race - that would have hurt them more.
I remember back when Mika Hakkenen overtook DC back in the day, and just remember thinking, that's the worst decision i've ever seen. Drivers should be allowed to race, and when management interveens, its stopping the drivers do that. Having said that, we have absolutely no idea what the contracts say, and that may have a huge baring on it too.
Good point raised Paul about McLaren being fined properly. The FIA has always been biased towards Ferrari as they know without them in the sport, it just wouldn't be the same, so last thing they want to do is get rid of them. I'm not a fan of Ferrari, but I have to say without the two red cars, it would just be boring!
Thank goodness I did not fork out my hard earned pennies to attend this GP. I would have felt robbed. What about you Delboy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delboy
so how did you feel about that then????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dogfather
oh i dont need to know much about f1 but thanks for your concern!!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dogfather
Disappointed for Hamilton and Alonso, but if the team cheated they should be punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
So being a Ferrari fan is like supporting Man United at football then, I wasn't concerned I was just highlighting your lack of knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
Can you imagine if you had put a bet on for massa to win with alonso 2nd... I think I would be livid and want Ferrari to pay out what the bookie would have as it is their cheating that caused the loss of winnings ;)
Personally, I feel sorry for Massa, its the end of his career as a potential No.1 driver for any of the top teams
how can you compare man utd with ferrari two different sports last time i checked, oh thats right you cant compare ferrari to another racing team of the same calibreQuote:
Originally Posted by The Dogfather
because there is no comparison!!!lol
eh hes in the top team!!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dogfather
the drivers were allowed to compete because they were leading the championship whats that all about then they should have been thrown out of f1 for this and werent!!now your claiming sabotage cmon a bit far fetched dont you think lolQuote:
Originally Posted by The Dogfather
I wasn't, I was comparing the supporters, from my experience a large number of people who know very little about football claim to be Man U fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
Dispute the top team comment, but for arguments sake we'll ignore it. Massa is not allowed to race for the championship in a Ferrari, so effectively his career is over as far as being a world champion is concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
The official reason was drivers weren't guilty of spying the team was hence why action was only taken against the team, but most people believe the real reason the drivers got off was that it would have effectively ended a large percentage of the audience interest in the sport. This would have damaged attendance at races and advertising revenue.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
I wasn't claiming sabotage at all, I just said it was suspect, maybe even faked.
It all boils down to this, Rule 39 point no one cares states that there is to be no team orders in F1. Ferrari's management didn't have the balls to tell Massa to pull over, so they got Rob Smedly to do it for them. Therefore team orders was used, which also means they broke the rules. Was the fine fair? Probably had it been more than a little bit of pocket change. Should the drivers be thrown out of the race? Probably not considering it was the "teams" decision, much like the McLaren incident. Does team orders and rule breaking go on in F1...of course, it goes on in every sport. Tennis for example, you are not allowed to coach from the box, but do people do it? Yes, a little nose scratch here, a little tip of the hat there...it happens, its just that Ferrari were so obvious in doing it, we all cried CHEATS!
Oh look, they are just arriving in Hurgary...maybe there will be a race this time!:argh::argh::argh:
Yes, totally agree Stephen - I would've been mad if I'd been there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Ecosse
Exactly because Ferrari are crap and the only way they can get anywhere is by cheating, which other teams aren't guilty of.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
Ehhh NO hes not, its actually McLaren thats the top team in the Constructors and Drivers Championships so far, there drivers are 1 & 2 so far, and the nearest Ferrari driver is ummmm in 5th and how did he suddenly get there, oh yeah bye cheating (but hes still fifth!) and McLaren(1st) are nearly 100 points ahead of ferrari(3rd) in the Constructors Championship, so where you get the idea that Alonso is in the top team, I'll never know :rolleyes:, Ferrari are **** and they know it, so they can only bet places by cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
3rd is not top in my book. :idunno:
no one mentioned alonso we were talking about massa doh.regarding "the best" i meant ferrari,i mean there that **** mclaren tried to copy them a few seasons back and got there arse felt for it typical statement from a SILVER FERRARI FAN LOLOLOLOL!!Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
look at your history man and tell me there not top?? Forza scuderia ferrari!!Quote:
Originally Posted by minimad
Even more disgusting was the result of the enquiry published today, no further action to be taken :ragin:
Well, i for one will never knowingly part with my hard earned to help Ferrari make a single dime, feckin disgrace to real racing
Ho hum :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gismo Man
So they are getting off with it AGAIN!! ...theres a shock :argh: :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gismo Man
I think the F in F1 stands for Ferrari1 and not Formula1, thats the way Im seeing it anyway.:idunno:
jings crivens i think the boys got it !!lol lolQuote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
It seems to me that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the way fans perceive F1 teams are run and why there are 2 cars in a team. Principly, there are two to double the exposure of the brand, but traditionally, F1 teams have always tried to field at least 2 cars, often more, to increase there chances of decent results, then as the season progresses, if one driver begins to extend a lead over the other, the lagging team mate helps the leading one to win the championship for the team, this is not a new thing, even back in the days before commercialism of the sport and it was still being run with cars with spoked wheels and 'gentleman' drivers with leather helmets... These guys would even commandeer there team mates cars if their one failed mid race to remain in the hunt for championship!
Formula 1 has always been a team sport, and no team is ever going to be happy allowing there drivers to race each other unnecessarily, the risks are to great when it goes wrong... Red bull, the team and it's drivers, may yet pay dearly for their little squabble over the same peice of Tarmac earlier this year... And look how much they were ridiculed at the time for it!
I totally agree with DC, this is a team sport, if a driver doesn't like that arrangement, then go and design, build, develop, prepare and repair your own chassis, gearbox, engine, aero package, tyres, brakes, etc, etc.
I can understand that F1 needs to listen to the fans too though, but it seems to me that the fans either need to wake up and smell the coffee and accept that teams are always going to sacrifice spectacle for results everytime or remove the issue of team orders once and for all... Ban second cars and make all teams 'one car teams', I don't like the idea one little bit, but it would definitly stop any accusation of teamorders!
As for Ferrari getting alot their own way, I am not a ferrari fan, but I know that Ferrari and F1 are inextricably linked in more ways than one, obviously they are the longest surviving team in the championship, but they are by far F1's most globally recognised brand in it's portfolio.... Honestly, when was the last time you heard someone say "if I win the euro millions, I am going to go straight out and buy myself a Renault!" or regardless of how much you might say you don't want a Ferrari, if someone came up to you and offered a free Ferrari or all the red bull you could consume for the rest of your life, you ain't gonna be walking away from the deal with the high caffine drink are you! Similarly, Ferrari would sell sh1t load less cars if it were to walk from F1... not to mention the backlash from the Italian car buying public that would devastate FIAT.
That said, Ferrari is a shadow of it's former self, and I hate to point out, will not be "the" top team again for a couple of seasons. I was a fan of the Schumacher/Brawn partnership and I think they did a great job of getting the team to work around them and the ethos of that team was to win at all costs... Not to win in the most spectator friendly way... These guys, and most racers in general, don't give a stuff about spectators anyway, and although we all know it's the fans that ultimatly pay for the yaughts and fancy cars the drivers prance around in, most of the real die hard racers would still go racing if no bugger was watching at all!
Sorry. I really need to get rid of this insomnia... These bloody posts are getting bigger!!
All very valid points and well put from a racers perspective.
Now, assume that i am a gambler and i had paid decent money for a particular result, along comes the instruction for Massa to move over live on the airwaves and bam, there goes my wager. Which is just one reason why i don't like to "know" race fixing goes on.
We, as fans expect true and honest racing, look at the controversy surrounding the Pakistan cricketers who cheated, i don't see much difference in this particular Ferrari episode.
So, as long as i continue to follow the sport and actually pay money to watch and purchase their goods i won't partake of any of their stalls at events.
Of course, if Mr Ferrari should be walking down Pensacola Boulevard handing our free Enzo's i'll snap his hand off :Whistle:
I can see both points of view, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. According to the rules as they are today, Ferrari cheated. They get a 100K fine. Renault fixed a race, which in my mind is the same as team orders in so much as they affected the outcome of the race, and got a suspended sentence.
I think what rankles a lot of people is that McLaren, unproved that they cheated a few seasons ago, were fined £100M - where is the parity of punishment? We all know F1 is changing, it's getting more transparent and that helps, but teams need to acknowledge the fans are what funds their racing - they have to protect "the product".
Well, there is a theory that actually it was their own doing. The accident was very similar to Vettels clown driving into Button at Spa. The theory is that due to the "illegal" flexing wings and floor the balance of the car when it's in traffic is compromised - so if you pull out from behind another car, the wing is part flexed on the side that is exposed and causes instability. The video from Spa shows this much clearer than the earlier incident, plus people were actually looking for it, so you never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Noble
I am not being patronising, but if you dont understand the sport, dont gamble money on the result and tayloring a sport to the needs of a gambler always leads to sleaze anyway, unlike sports like boxing, F1 doesnt need gambling revenue to survive, and long may that be true. I dont know anything about cricket, but it is my understanding that the matchfixing was blatant and purely for some crooked gamblers benefit, and what was done was akin to what Renault/Briotore did a couple of years ago when they got someone to crash to influence the result of a race instead of driving to influence the result.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gismo Man
Whith the Alonso/Massa thing, surely this is more like Rooney and Beckham rushing into the box in the last ten minutes of a world cup match, Beckham has beaten the defenders and keeper but at the last minute back passes to Rooney for a clear shot at goal as he knows Rooney is in with a shot at the Golden Boot and he isnt, the goal is still a goal, the team still win, and the team still help an individual on their challenge... would anyone cry fix and demand Rooney and Beckham get red cards... assuming of course the goal was not scored against Scotland... then they would deserve lifetime bans and public flogging!!!
But that is my point, the law in this case is an ass. The rule "no team orders allowed" is totally uninforcable and completely out of touch with the sport... to anyone in the sport it is as ludicris as saying that the manager of a football team should not be allowed to make a substitution as it influences the result of a match... of course it does, thats why there are TWO cars!Quote:
Originally Posted by euan
The rule either needs to be removed completely and the fans then understand that it is going to happen and if they dont like it they can vote with their feet, or ban the second car, removing all team orders and leaving you with blatant cheating between competeing teams to influence results.
Which is my other point, the pace of modern F1 is such that the cars are now more upside down aircraft than racing cars, with around 90% of the grip available on a corner coming from aero generated downforce. As teams have to push the limits just to keep pace, let alone pull ahaed, the cars are becoming more and more nervous. Think about aircraft, any pilot will tell you that low level flying is harder than high altitude stuff, and the closer to the ground you go the more difficult is gets as the air between the wings and ground gets squeezed and bounces around unpredictably, these guys who race old WWII fighters in Arizona say that the buzz from trying to control their craft at less than 50 feet is mega... messrs Newey and Brawn have to engineer a "plane" that is predictable at 25mm off the deck!Quote:
Originally Posted by euan
Flight control regulations keep aircraft miles apart because of turbulance, even tight formation stunt aircraft keep tens of meters apart to prevent the lift that keeps their craft up from getting 'switched off' as the airflow is disrupted... again in F1, these 'planes' are expected to follow in the wake of the car in front and still behave predictably.
This is why overtaking is relatively rare in F1 these days, and why teams will do all possiblke to avoid their two championship hopes, not to mention two horrendously expensive upside down aircraft from tangling with each other.
I fully understand the sport and the reasoning for 2 cars and for one of them being better than the other then let them through etc, it's the rules of the sport that NO team orders are allowed, hence my greetin in this thread, if, however, the rule was abolished then i would accept it, so i'm sorry, your view is lost to me because of the actual rules in place at this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Noble