Mini stolen

[granco]

My cousin has had his Mini stolen from his driveway, and his Insurance company (AXA) are refusing to pay out because they fail to see how this could possibly have happened (he still has the keys).

Is anyone aware of other Mini's being stolen in this manner??? AXA say they have spoken to BMW who also have no recollection of any being stolen without keys!

I was under the impression that no car is "unstealable".

Any useful information greatly appreciated.

[Big Col]

I've never heard of it before but is your cousin sure the spare key isn't stolen?

[Gismo]

Possibly dragged onto a low loader, only the tyres and handbrake for resistance

[Wul]

or perhaps they stole it on a recovery vehicle in the wee hours of the morning! A nightmare no matter what though!

[granco]

He has 2 keys, but has been told there's a chance there should be a third (valet key perhaps?). Is this true - from what I can remember, he bought it used from a BMW dealer - I guess he could take the 3rd key issue up with them if it is the case.

[sleepyrascal]

i suppose if the alarm had a malfunction and the window was removed, the car could have been towed away. Even then, the insurance company wouldn't pay up because they would blame BMW, and in turn BMW would sytematically blame every living person on planet earth, and perhaps look for people to blame on other planets before accepting blame themselves!

There is a 3rd key supplied with MINIs. Its a small black plastic key which is supposed to be used in emergencies.

[Julz]

So they're basically saying they only class a car as stolen if the keys are taken too!? That's shocking!:eek::mad:

[Scottie]

Jeez so if my mini was parked up in a town and it was stolen without using the keys then the insurance company would not pay out.:eek::eek::eek:

That just can not be right surely.

What about when they use that long slim metal thing that they slide down between the window and door and unlock the door into the car do whatever to the alarm take off the handbrake hook the front car up into of those breakdown trucks tows things that lifts the front wheels of the ground and away they go.

[GAJ]

You're in the know Fee! Now we know where all the new cars are coming from!;)

[Scottie]

quote:Originally posted by GAJ

You're in the know Fee! Now we know where all the new cars are coming from!;)


:D:D dam I've been busted.;):p

[bpirie1000]

well if your Busted

I want my Aston Martin, Bently Turbo, TVR, Mclaren F1,Lada Rivam, Robin Reliant back

Preferrably in that order too..

All washed and Clean..

Cheers.

[KAH]

Surely if your motor is taken away with out your consent...thats theft...keys or no keys....This is the maddest thing i've heard

[sleepyrascal]

quote:Originally posted by bpirie1000

well if your Busted

I want my Aston Martin, Bently Turbo, TVR, Mclaren F1,Lada Rivam, Robin Reliant back

Preferrably in that order too..

All washed and Clean..

Cheers.

You want your TVR back before your Mclaren F1!!!!!! Your MAD! :D

[bpirie1000]

quote:You want your TVR back before your Mclaren F1!!!!!! Your MAD! :D

Everyone has a Mclaren F1 I liked my TVR.......

Corgi did a Brilliant job of painting it..

Hee hee
the Real car would be more like an orniment anyways. there always breaking down.

[Mini Me]

I WOULD CHECK WITH YOUR DEALER.THEY KEEP A NATIONAL REGISTER OF ANY KEYS ORDERED FOR YOUR CHASSIS NUMBER, EVEN IF IT WASN'Y YOU.....
EVERY EFFORT IS TAKEN, PROOF OF OWNERSHIP ETC. BUT WORTH A TRY

[Bignorm]

yeah broon is right if you contact your local dealer they can get in touch with bmw and you can find out the last dealer who ordered a key for your car and hopefully the dealer will still have the customers details cause as a dealer we are not allowed to order keys unless we have a copy of the v5 reg docs proof of id and payment good luck tho any probs with the local dealer give me a shout and ill try and help

[Julz]

So is the moral of this story, if you plan to leave your car unattended, make sure you leave the keys in it incase it gets nicked??:eek::clown:

[KenL]

This is terrible :disapprove:

If I were you I would very closely read the wording in your policy document.

Also, it may be worth contacting the body who regulates insurers to make sure they can do what they are trying to do. They are obviously trying it on, perhaps thinking that you are trying to de-fraud them :eek:

Do you have any family legal protection through your house insurance? Perhaps speak to a lawyer or CAB.

Good luck.

[N12 JLK]

The ABI regulates insurers. However, they would ask that you follow the companies complaints procedure before reporting to them. Contact AXA and tell them you would like to make a complaint and ask what their procedure is and follow it ensuring you keep a copy of all letters, phone calls etc.

I have never heard of anything so ridiculous.

[Duncan Stewart]

This is crazy! I was told that if my car was stolen with the keys it was not covered due to my neglect in letting the thiefs get they keys.
So are insurance companies now basically saying you are not insured for theft!!!

[weefossy]

Sorry to hear about your loss. I’ve had 2 cars stolen and have never had a problem with the insurance and I have never heard this one before. I think you need to go back to AXA and get them to detail where in the policy wording, this exclusion exists. Did you buy online or by phone? Who effectively “sold” you the policy should have been duty bound to point out such an exclusion.
We are potentially all in the mire if this is a possible “get out” clause. Have AXA never seen “Gone in Sixty Seconds.”
If AXA don’t help, there is an Insurance Ombudsman who will handle a dispute if you fail to resolve it between youselves and AXA must give you their number. I also think the Citizens’ Advice Bureau would be interested / helpful with this.
I would also phone a few other insurance companies, looking for future insurance and see if they make a similar exclusion.
Should we all be phoning our own insurance companies, to check if we are covered in this situation and report back? Is anyone else with AXA?

[weefossy]

Just had another read at Duncan's post. Friend of mine in Glasgow had both his cars taken off the drive. Daughter went off to school and left front door unlocked and while Graeme was in the shower, thieves came in front door, took keys off hall table and drove away with both Audi and BMW. Both insurance companies paid out without any problems. There does not seem to be any logic here:disapprove::mad: I really do think we all need to check where we stand on this.

[Duncan Stewart]

I've read that the most common way to steal cars now is to steal the keys. However in the recent cold weather I started my mini in the morning to defrost it. A couple of people told me that if it was stolen with the keys it I would not be covered by my insurance. :(

[markyc]

If your car is taken from your drive, carpark, street or wherever with or without the keys it is a theft but in the end it comes down to the insurance company and their clauses. Please don't leave your wee Mini's alone with the keys in the ignition EVER you defo wont get a penny from the insurance :eek::(:disapprove: I speak to people all too often in my job (nee naw) who are heartbroken that there car has been pinched with the keys in it and the insurance company wont give them a penny No nice :disapprove:;) If all the keys can be accounted for with this Mini I see no reason why the insurance company should say it's not covered ;)

[granco]

Already following AXA's complaints procedure! To give a bit more background, the car was actually stolen last April, and following 2 interviews from AXA's investigators and 2 police interviews (including my cousin's wife and young son!) it took AXA 6 months to tell him that they weren't paying out!!!! I did the complaint letter for him, and it took them another 6 weeks to reply to that saying they still weren't paying out. They have now said he can go to the Financial Ombudsman Service. I would let anyone who is insured with AXA know about this, as this is a quote from their last letter: -

"Having reviewed our file in detail I must advise that due to the security fitted as standard to the vehicle in question we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described. We have made extensive enquiries with a BMW agent into incidents of this nature and have received advice that they have no recollection of any BMW Minis stolen without keys. In view of the above we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described."

They have completely ignored the fact that he advised them he only had 2 out of the 3 keys, and are still saying that no one could possibly steal any car without an electronic chipped ignition key! This is now starting to really upset my cousin and this is why I turned to you guys to see if I could get any useful information!!

markyc - don't suppose you would be able to "obtain information" in your area regarding the theft of cars with electronic immobilisers similar to that in a Mini, where the owner has still had the keys (or certainly thought they had all of them!)

Again guys - any info greatly appreciated and watch out for AXA!!! (Even Central Scotland's finest said "oh them again" when my cousin said who the insurance company was!

[Scottie]

quote:Originally posted by granco

Already following AXA's complaints procedure! To give a bit more background, the car was actually stolen last April, and following 2 interviews from AXA's investigators and 2 police interviews (including my cousin's wife and young son!) it took AXA 6 months to tell him that they weren't paying out!!!! I did the complaint letter for him, and it took them another 6 weeks to reply to that saying they still weren't paying out. They have now said he can go to the Financial Ombudsman Service. I would let anyone who is insured with AXA know about this, as this is a quote from their last letter: -

"Having reviewed our file in detail I must advise that due to the security fitted as standard to the vehicle in question we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described. We have made extensive enquiries with a BMW agent into incidents of this nature and have received advice that they have no recollection of any BMW Minis stolen without keys. In view of the above we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described."

They have completely ignored the fact that he advised them he only had 2 out of the 3 keys, and are still saying that no one could possibly steal any car without an electronic chipped ignition key! This is now starting to really upset my cousin and this is why I turned to you guys to see if I could get any useful information!!

markyc - don't suppose you would be able to "obtain information" in your area regarding the theft of cars with electronic immobilisers similar to that in a Mini, where the owner has still had the keys (or certainly thought they had all of them!)

Again guys - any info greatly appreciated and watch out for AXA!!! (Even Central Scotland's finest said "oh them again" when my cousin said who the insurance company was!


Oh dear that's not good. Can you say how the car was stolen exaclty if not then I understand cause reading the small quote you included it seems to me they are saying it is because of the manner in which the car was stolen would not be possible without keys.

[3GGG]

Also be aware of another trick that is being employed: A piece of paper is put under your rear wiper, you only notice it when you have started your car and then jump out to remove it and the Neds jump in and make off with the car!

As for Insurance companies - they are almost as bad as the Neds.

[Burple]

quote:[i]

"Having reviewed our file in detail I must advise that due to the security fitted as standard to the vehicle in question we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described. We have made extensive enquiries with a BMW agent into incidents of this nature and have received advice that they have no recollection of any BMW Minis stolen without keys. In view of the above we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described."


That from a quite well known large insurance company? That's a joke. A BMW agent has no recollections of this happening, so it can't have happened. Yes.. I see no ships.
So if it really hasn't happened before, couldn't this be the first time?? ha ha. I'm sure this isn't the first tho! :disapprove::disapprove::mad::mad::mad:

If somebody wants to steal a car, steal it they will.

So is that like saying if someone wants to break into your house, if they don't have the keys then they can't do it?

Don't start me on insurance companies! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[markyc]

Granco, Never came across a 'new' car fitted with an electronic immobiliser and chipped key that has been pinched before without using a key that suits the car Don't want to say too much on an open forum either ;) What questions did AXA ask their BMW folk, try and find out and then go in and see your local BMW dealer and ask them all the same questions. Hopefully you dealer is as good to deal with as the one at NMS HQ ;):D Keep at it don't let AXA have the last word ;)

[weefossy]

Edinburgh Traffic Wardens lift cars every day without the keys!

"Stolen in the manner described" infers to me that they think owner was in on it. Can they prove that assumption, or justify it!

Are BMW saying their cars are un-nickable? Would they like to put that in writing to me? Maybe you could confirm this Mr Broon?

or have AXA got the BMW response in writing; would like to see a copy of that. If they haven't, would it stand up in court?

Has you friend taken legal advice, as I think it is time to do so.

Don't give up with AXA. Keep up the pressure until they crack. No insurance company likes this, I know from experience!!

:disapprove::disapprove::(:(:mad::mad:

[AeroJonny]

Someone could easily get hold of a MINI ecu and transponder chips for the keys off of ebay or even from a scrappy, (I've seen it advertised as a way of turning a one into a cooper) then maybe broken into the car and put it in, i think its a quick job to carry out too. Keep pressing AXA, they'll slip sooner rather than later. Best of luck!!

[sleepyrascal]

Just a thought.....

Is the VIN number visable at any point of a MINI without having access to it? If it is, then it would be very easy for someone to obtain the VIN and order a new key assuming the theif knew who the actual owner of the car was.

On the other hand if the VIN is not visable, it could easily be obtained in othere ways by a theif.

Alternatively, does you cousin use any sevice where they key has to be handed to an unknown party.. i.e valet parking/cleaning, non bmw garage etc? A copy can easily be taken of the key and an order placed for a new one.

As i say... just a thought...

[Burple]

quote:Originally posted by sleepyrascal

Just a thought.....

Is the VIN number visable at any point of a MINI without having access to it? If it is, then it would be very easy for someone to obtain the VIN and order a new key assuming the theif knew who the actual owner of the car was.
On the other hand if the VIN is not visable, it could easily be obtained in othere ways by a theif.
Alternatively, does you cousin use any sevice where they key has to be handed to an unknown party.. i.e valet parking/cleaning, non bmw garage etc? A copy can easily be taken of the key and an order placed for a new one.

As i say... just a thought...


Isn't the VIN visible through the bottom of the Windscreen? (or is that something different?

Have to say I'll be EXTREMELY careful if I have to take another car for an MOT, and make sure I take it to a well respected Garage. THe reason I say this is that I have had two cars broken into, suspiciously within 2 weeks of having the MOT done at the same garage :disapprove:. Different cars, parked in totally different places. Unlucky coincidence maybe, nothing can be proven (and it was probably some inbred scummy Ned)... but I'll certainly be more careful next time! :mad:

[granco]

Weefossy - That was exactly what I thought re inferring that my cousin was in on it somehow. In a letter to them I raised this point (as I pointed out before after 4 interviews from investigators and police there was no suspicion of my cousin's involvement whatsoever) and whilst they acknowledged that they "are certainly not saying that you have been personally involved in the theft of this vehicle neither do we wish to cause any offence we fail to see how this theft could have occured".

They did however choose to completely ignore the fact that we informed them that only 2 out of the 3 keys were handed over when purchasing the car from the dealer in Edinburgh (not sure if it was Eastern or Dunedin). I have told my cousin to pursue the missing 3rd key mystery for the time being.

Does anyone know if I would be right in saying that if the dealer only had 2 keys, and knew there was a chance someone still had the spare key, they should have remapped the 2 keys and the immobiliser to ensure the spare key could no longer be used???

Also, just for further info, the car literally just disappeared from the drive one night while 4 of the family were (asleep) in the house, so not a lot of noise was made (and they live in a nice quiet cul-de-sac). The car was found the next day up some farm track burnt out after being rammed into a tree.

And yes weefossy, it would appear that BMW are saying their cars are un-nickable (without a key). Which is funny, because I'm aware there was a gang that were operating across the Central Belt recently stealing all manner of high-value vehicles incl BMW's, Merc's, Range Rover's etc and I don't believe for a minute that they just happened to have a spare key for them all! In fact I can't believe for a second that every BMW that is nicked in the UK is because the thieves managed to get hold of a key - there must be other ways????

[Craig]

for your info granco, most (if not all) high value thefts of cars is by true key. The usual manner is to see a nice car in the driveway and break into the house and nick the keys for the car and drive it away...:( Some people still leave their keys on the table in the hall:eek::eek:, all the crim has to do is put a pole through the letter box and lift the keys...:disapprove:

It is very rare these days for high value cars to be stolen without a key due to the complex alarms and immobilisers they have..

[The Bull]

Just as a wee bit of extra info on the keys issue. (Correct me if I'm wrong - but after losing a key myself I've looked into this a bit.)

On delivery you get 3 keys. 2 normal ones and one plastic "valet" key which can be used to get into the car but not start it.

If you have lost a key (or had one stolen) and you have the car and remaining key reprogrammed, the lost (or stolen) key will still give the holder access to the car but like the valet key will not allow the holder to start the car.

This doesn't help you much I know but might make the issue of keys a bit clearer.

[KenL]

quote:Originally posted by picklehammer
If you have lost a key (or had one stolen) and you have the car and remaining key reprogrammed, the lost (or stolen) key will still give the holder access to the car but like the valet key will not allow the holder to start the car.



I've not got a MINI now but I am sure that you can start the car with the plastic key.

Also, the second key is already coded and ready for use when you get it from the dealer.

The coding thing anyway is only for remote unlocking. A correct uncoded key will open (manually) and start the car. I know this as I got another key which worked everything except the remote function until it was coded.

Also, a key with a dead battery will still open the door (manually) and start the car.

[MartinSullivan]

quote:Originally posted by KenL
I've not got a MINI now but I am sure that you can start the car with the plastic key.


I wasnt sure about the plastic key - either and mine is filed away somewhere safe , but I looked it up on Mini2 and apparently the plastic key does includes a chip and is capable of starting the car

[Burple]

quote:Originally posted by MartinSullivan


quote:Originally posted by KenL
I've not got a MINI now but I am sure that you can start the car with the plastic key.


I wasnt sure about the plastic key - either and mine is filed away somewhere safe , but I looked it up on Mini2 and apparently the plastic key does includes a chip and is capable of starting the car


Yip.. that's what I was reliably informed at NMS HQ a few weeks back ;)
Once you unlock the ar with it, you have 10 seconds to put the key in the ignition to stop the alarm going off too (if you have one).

[GAJ]

I lost my plastic key ages ago! Should I be worried? How much does a replacement cost?

[Scottie]

Plastic Key what plastic key should I have one the dealer never showed me any plastic key where should it be in the wallet maybe. I'll check tonight.

[Burple]

quote:Originally posted by ScottieCoop

Plastic Key what plastic key should I have one the dealer never showed me any plastic key where should it be in the wallet maybe. I'll check tonight.


You should get it with your normal keys :D

Mr Broon was very good at telling me all the things I knew already :D:p;)

It didn't even SOUND like he was reading it off a card ;):p

[Scottie]

quote:Originally posted by low_n_loud1


quote:Originally posted by ScottieCoop

Plastic Key what plastic key should I have one the dealer never showed me any plastic key where should it be in the wallet maybe. I'll check tonight.


You should get it with your normal keys :D

Mr Broon was very good at telling me all the things I knew already :D:p;)

It didn't even SOUND like he was reading it off a card ;):p




I'm sure our plastic key will be somewhere.

[Scottie]

quote:Originally posted by craigd

Some people still leave their keys on the table in the hall:eek::eek:, all the crim has to do is put a pole through the letter box and lift the keys...:disapprove:




I leave my keys right by the porch door don't want anyone coming through my house to get the keys if they want the car that much they can have it.

Mind you even in the porch they still have 5 dogs to get past first.:D:D

[granco]

My cousin enquired and was told by someone in the dealership (it was Eastern in Edinburgh) that they sometimes put the plastic key in the manuals folder in the glove box, so if anyone can't find theirs, check in there, and remove it ASAP!!!!

[Crombers]

Henry Bros explained at handover what was what & the plastic key was handed over to me along with the real keys. Would have thought that would have been the same for all MINI dealers as they would have to explain to a new owner what it is for.

[RichardV]

Hi sorry been away so never saw this - my ex-housemate had an accident about a year and a half ago and he was insured with AXA. When he contacted them to make a claim (I think it was a mutual agreement that both partys were at fault), AXA claimed that he had contacted them 2 days after setting the policy up to cancel the plan and that he was not insured with them!!

He had paid the £800 or so up front and this had not been refunded to him, he asked for proof that he had called them (as he knew he hadnt) and they could not produce any, apparantly their phone calls had not taped.....Even still they stood their ground and did not pay, in the end he went to the ombudsman and they granted in his favour and they paid out - took a long long time though...

Not really the same as yours but shows they are numpties and you should not back down on this one!

Good luck





quote:Originally posted by granco

Already following AXA's complaints procedure! To give a bit more background, the car was actually stolen last April, and following 2 interviews from AXA's investigators and 2 police interviews (including my cousin's wife and young son!) it took AXA 6 months to tell him that they weren't paying out!!!! I did the complaint letter for him, and it took them another 6 weeks to reply to that saying they still weren't paying out. They have now said he can go to the Financial Ombudsman Service. I would let anyone who is insured with AXA know about this, as this is a quote from their last letter: -

"Having reviewed our file in detail I must advise that due to the security fitted as standard to the vehicle in question we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described. We have made extensive enquiries with a BMW agent into incidents of this nature and have received advice that they have no recollection of any BMW Minis stolen without keys. In view of the above we fail to see how the vehicle could have been stolen in the manner described."

They have completely ignored the fact that he advised them he only had 2 out of the 3 keys, and are still saying that no one could possibly steal any car without an electronic chipped ignition key! This is now starting to really upset my cousin and this is why I turned to you guys to see if I could get any useful information!!

markyc - don't suppose you would be able to "obtain information" in your area regarding the theft of cars with electronic immobilisers similar to that in a Mini, where the owner has still had the keys (or certainly thought they had all of them!)

Again guys - any info greatly appreciated and watch out for AXA!!! (Even Central Scotland's finest said "oh them again" when my cousin said who the insurance company was!

[The Bull]

I'm confused now. Sorry if this is drifting off topic.

So the valet key should start the car? Mine doesn't. It was handed over with my remaining key when I put it in to get reprogrammed so if it has a chip surely they should have reprogrammed that too?

[KenL]

quote:Originally posted by picklehammer

I'm confused now. Sorry if this is drifting off topic.

So the valet key should start the car? Mine doesn't. It was handed over with my remaining key when I put it in to get reprogrammed so if it has a chip surely they should have reprogrammed that too?


I'm sure the re-programming bit is only for the remote unlock of a proper key.

I thought the key had a coil or something that when put into the ignition barrel dis-arms the immobiliser.

Someone must know for sure?

[granco]

Just as a follow up, my cousin did have all 3 keys but didn't realise, and AXA are in possession of all 3. So, unless there was another key made for his car (still waiting to hear back from Mini about this), it would appear that a Mini (or BMW?) can indeed be nicked without a key.

[KenL]

quote:Originally posted by granco

it would appear that a Mini (or BMW?) can indeed be nicked without a key.


Of course they can. The police remove parked cars all the time without a key!

[granco]

quote:Originally posted by KenL

Of course they can. The police remove parked cars all the time without a key!


Aye, really funny post on the subject of someone's pride and joy getting stolen. Thanks for your valuable input. :clown:

[KenL]

quote:Originally posted by granco


quote:Originally posted by KenL

Of course they can. The police remove parked cars all the time without a key!


Aye, really funny post on the subject of someone's pride and joy getting stolen. Thanks for your valuable input. :clown:


Well actually, I was not being funny. I was pointing out that cars can in fact be stolen without keys.

I thought I had make some valuable inpu to this thread :disapprove:

[Crombers]

quote:Originally posted by KenL


quote:Originally posted by granco

it would appear that a Mini (or BMW?) can indeed be nicked without a key.


Of course they can. The police remove parked cars all the time without a key!


I took this to ba a valid (non funny) post as well

[Burple]

quote:

Of course they can. The police remove parked cars all the time without a key!


quote:
I took this to ba a valid (non funny) post as well


Yip.. same here..

If the Police can manage it without the key, what's to stop someone else doing the same? If the car didn't have an alarm, what's to stop them chucking it on the back of a flatbed? or an A-frame on the back of a van... or a recovery vehicle? Even with an alarm it can still be done (with a bit of noise :blackeye:). I mean, hoe many people really react these days whena car alarm goes off?

/Insurance companies exist to make money, not to protect our property.

[Wul]

Furthermore - similar comments were made on the first page of this thread.

[monkimagic]

quote:Originally posted by granco


quote:Originally posted by KenL

Of course they can. The police remove parked cars all the time without a key!


Aye, really funny post on the subject of someone's pride and joy getting stolen. Thanks for your valuable input. :clown:


Steady on granco, thats seems like a sound comment from Kenl, ;)

[granco]

Apologies, but I took the key point in KenL's post to be the POLICE removing cars without keys. Technically therefore it's not being STOLEN!!

[sleepyrascal]

quote:Originally posted by granco

Apologies, but I took the key point in KenL's post to be the POLICE removing cars without keys. Technically therefore it's not being STOLEN!!


Yes but Granco... the point is.... if the Police can take you car away without keys, so could anybody!

[The Dogfather]

Has the car been recovered? If not then it sounds like it was stolen to order, which would point to professional car thieves. So I would imagine the lowloader hypothesis would tie in quite well. :(