R53 top mount or front mount intercooler

[will69176]

Whats your thoughts on this?

I quite fancy an airtec FMIC

i assume there will be some pressure loss due to the larger capacity of a front mount, can this be offset with a more reduced supercharger pulley?

Is there any chance of boost leaks due to the intercooler not being mounted to the engine itself?

Is the reduced temperature easily noticeable?

Anything else to consider?

[EcosseGP]

The front mount inter cooler will depend on a couple of things. If you've got AC you'll need to lose that for fitting purposes. This usually puts folk off although it's not a big job to do. It also begs the question do you need there extra cooling ? For constant track days then I would say you may well notice the benefit of longer runs but apart from that I'd say you'll notice very little difference over a top mont for day to day use. I run a GRS sport top mount IC and I'm very pleased with the recovery times and wouldn't hesitate to run it on the track. I think the big picture is how much work do you want to give yourself and for what benefit. If everything is fitted correctly I can't see you having any leak issues and the air going to and from the cooler will be cooler anyway given the distance it has to travel from the engine ... just my opinion


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[will69176]

The front mount inter cooler will depend on a couple of things. If you've got AC you'll need to lose that for fitting purposes. This usually puts folk off although it's not a big job to do. It also begs the question do you need there extra cooling ? For constant track days then I would say you may well notice the benefit of longer runs but apart from that I'd say you'll notice very little difference over a top mont for day to day use. I run a GRS sport top mount IC and I'm very pleased with the recovery times and wouldn't hesitate to run it on the track. I think the big picture is how much work do you want to give yourself and for what benefit. If everything is fitted correctly I can't see you having any leak issues and the air going to and from the cooler will be cooler anyway given the distance it has to travel from the engine ... just my opinion



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thanks for the reply!

The aircon isn't a concern to me, i understand its just a case of fitting an idler pulley in its place then removing all other components. Is there no way of just fitting a shorter belt?

You are right in asking whether i need that level of cooling. At this moment in time, probably not. The predicament is though, eventually i hope to do some track days and carry out a few more upgrades, so I'm reluctant to buy a top mount only to find it needs replacing in the near future.

[Mon the fish]

Are you monitoring your IATs at the moment to see if you need the greater intercooling capacity? What size pulley are you running? Water meth an option instead?

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[jdl_1967]

I run an Airtech TMIC and even after being thrashed, it's almost cold to the touch. Leave it a couple of minutes though and it can almost be too hot to touch. Heat soak is terrible and you can really feel the effects of a sluggish throttle coming out of town or in stop go traffic.

I guess it depends on what you will be using the car for. I was speaking to a guy that hillclimbs an R53, he suffers from heat soak due to having to warm the car up stationary before the start (obvious I know) and then he's only using it for a minute or so before his run is over. If you're tracking it, or live away from traffic, I think a TMIC would be fine as it's always being fed cool air.

I too have considered water / methanol injection, but not tuning for the methanol just in case I run out and pop my engine. I also have concerns it freezes up in winter. Hopefully the methanol will prevent this in the tank, but I'm not too sure about it once it's in the thinner tubing.

There's a brilliant comparison on North American Motoring between many TM intercoolers. A few years old now, but so are our cars and things haven't changed that much.

Not sure if I'm allowed to post links, please remove if not allowed

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/drivetrain-cooper-s/151068-intercooler-cooling-tests.html




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[will69176]

Are you monitoring your IATs at the moment to see if you need the greater intercooling capacity? What size pulley are you running? Water meth an option instead?

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I'm trying to measure the temps, having a little trouble understanding the dash command though. As i understand it, my reading was 42c above the ambient temp, however as mentioned I'm finding the dash command difficult to understand.

Pulley at the moment is 17% reduction, i will look to add crank and alternator pulley at a later date as well though.

isn't water/meth injection a pretty expensive option?

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I run an Airtech TMIC and even after being thrashed, it's almost cold to the touch. Leave it a couple of minutes though and it can almost be too hot to touch. Heat soak is terrible and you can really feel the effects of a sluggish throttle coming out of town or in stop go traffic.

I guess it depends on what you will be using the car for. I was speaking to a guy that hillclimbs an R53, he suffers from heat soak due to having to warm the car up stationary before the start (obvious I know) and then he's only using it for a minute or so before his run is over. If you're tracking it, or live away from traffic, I think a TMIC would be fine as it's always being fed cool air.

I too have considered water / methanol injection, but not tuning for the methanol just in case I run out and pop my engine. I also have concerns it freezes up in winter. Hopefully the methanol will prevent this in the tank, but I'm not too sure about it once it's in the thinner tubing.

There's a brilliant comparison on North American Motoring between many TM intercoolers. A few years old now, but so are our cars and things haven't changed that much.

Not sure if I'm allowed to post links, please remove if not allowed

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/drivetrain-cooper-s/151068-intercooler-cooling-tests.html




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The airtec was one i was looking at, seems to be between that and the GRS. I did see a pro alloy one which incorporates one of the intercooler horns as well, looks pretty interesting.

As far as the usage of the car... Its a second car, so realistically hammered it gets used it gets hammered. I hope to be doing some track days next year as well.

Interesting link too, thanks :)

[Mon the fish]

I'm trying to measure the temps, having a little trouble understanding the dash command though. As i understand it, my reading was 42c above the ambient temp, however as mentioned I'm finding the dash command difficult to understand.

Pulley at the moment is 17% reduction, i will look to add crank and alternator pulley at a later date as well though.

isn't water/meth injection a pretty expensive option?
It's more expensive long-term as you have to keep it topped up, it's not fit and forget. But if tracking it is the plan, you'll be spending £££ anyway!

Get a decent TMIC, monitor the IATs, and if it's not doing the job you want you'll be able to sell it on easily. There's a limited market for FMICs, and you will get boost loss.

The R53 is an imperfect design, and sometimes we just have to accept it's little idiosyncrasies - it's probably why we love them so

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[will69176]

It's more expensive long-term as you have to keep it topped up, it's not fit and forget. But if tracking it is the plan, you'll be spending £££ anyway!

Get a decent TMIC, monitor the IATs, and if it's not doing the job you want you'll be able to sell it on easily. There's a limited market for FMICs, and you will get boost loss.

The R53 is an imperfect design, and sometimes we just have to accept it's little idiosyncrasies - it's probably why we love them so

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What kind of power would you expect to lose using a fmic over a tmic?

Also, out of interest which tmic do you use?

[Mon the fish]

From what I remember it's about 5 bhp, and whilst it will take longer to heat soak, you still need clean air to drag the temps back down.

When Ricardo were developing the R53 engine they considered all the different options, and considered the TMIC to be the best compromise. I'd stick with what the engineers went for.

I run an Airtec, used to have a GRS. I deliberately run an 11% pulley to keep temps down at higher revs, and to make good power to the redline. 230 bhp in an R53 is plenty IMO.

IME the GRS ran in air a degree or 2 cooler than the Airtec, but at bursts of WOT the temps with the Airtec don't climb as quickly. In reality there's not much in it. I've also got an M7 bonnet scoop to try and help

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[EcosseGP]

You can easily monitor the IATs with a Scanguage and it'll show you exactly how long it takes for the temps to drop. It also does the job of 4 gauges but if you have dash command I'm surprised that you can't monitor inlet or outlet temps. For track stuff I know it's maybe a hassle but what about taking out a head light or side light and run cooling ducts .. you could always get a pair of headlight covers and manufacture something from them. Removing the AC radiator from in front of the radiator should give you a little more air cooling around the front of the car too.
I'd have to say though a good starting point would be to look at what the old challenge cars are running and do likewise ... they've made the mistakes and got a set up which is clearly geared towards a track car


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[will69176]

You can easily monitor the IATs with a Scanguage and it'll show you exactly how long it takes for the temps to drop. It also does the job of 4 gauges but if you have dash command I'm surprised that you can't monitor inlet or outlet temps. For track stuff I know it's maybe a hassle but what about taking out a head light or side light and run cooling ducts .. you could always get a pair of headlight covers and manufacture something from them. Removing the AC radiator from in front of the radiator should give you a little more air cooling around the front of the car too.
I'd have to say though a good starting point would be to look at what the old challenge cars are running and do likewise ... they've made the mistakes and got a set up which is clearly geared towards a track car


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@ecosseGP, its probably not the case that dash command can't monitor the temps, more likely that i haven't worked out how to do so properly yet!

Also, the air con will soon be going. I'm just trying to clarify whether it can be done with a shorter belt or only with an idle pulley in place of the AC.

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From what I remember it's about 5 bhp, and whilst it will take longer to heat soak, you still need clean air to drag the temps back down.

When Ricardo were developing the R53 engine they considered all the different options, and considered the TMIC to be the best compromise. I'd stick with what the engineers went for.

I run an Airtec, used to have a GRS. I deliberately run an 11% pulley to keep temps down at higher revs, and to make good power to the redline. 230 bhp in an R53 is plenty IMO.

IME the GRS ran in air a degree or 2 cooler than the Airtec, but at bursts of WOT the temps with the Airtec don't climb as quickly. In reality there's not much in it. I've also got an M7 bonnet scoop to try and help

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230bhp is certainly adequate, what else have you done?

[Mon the fish]

JCW 210, then Janspeed manifold, Newman cam, 550 injectors and a trip to 1320 for a remap. And then there's all the chassis mods etc...

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[EcosseGP]

Mine runs an easy 226 with standard injectors, manifold and I've not even had a remap !

[will69176]

Mine runs an easy 226 with standard injectors, manifold and I've not even had a remap !

impressive figures, whats your mods?

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JCW 210, then Janspeed manifold, Newman cam, 550 injectors and a trip to 1320 for a remap. And then there's all the chassis mods etc...

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interested know know how much the injectors, cam and remap was, i expect it all needs doing at once?

[Mon the fish]

Worth also remembering all dynos are different. Cam, injectors and tune should be done last - it ties all the other mods together. Budget £1k for them.

I went from 210 to 230 with the cam, injectors and tune (according to the 1320 dyno anyway)

[EcosseGP]

I have reduced pulley, reduced and lightened crankshaft pulley, GRS IC and a home made stainless steel exhaust. There will be more "bits" added in due course but the current set up engine wise has never let me down. It might not be the fastest R53 about but it certainly goes well enough for me ...


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[will69176]

Worth also remembering all dynos are different. Cam, injectors and tune should be done last - it ties all the other mods together. Budget £1k for them.

I went from 210 to 230 with the cam, injectors and tune (according to the 1320 dyno anyway)

are 1320 the only people that do the mapping?

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I have reduced pulley, reduced and lightened crankshaft pulley, GRS IC and a home made stainless steel exhaust. There will be more "bits" added in due course but the current set up engine wise has never let me down. It might not be the fastest R53 about but it certainly goes well enough for me ...


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good power for minimal mods, was yours a jcw initially?

[Mon the fish]

There's various folk will map R53s, Lohen being one example. 1320 have been doing it the longest and I think have done the most cars.

One thing to do is IMO don't do a canned tune - IMO the car should physically be at the tuners, where they can monitor air/fuel ratios. Plenty stories of people who have went for a simple tune, which all it did was lean the engine out - hey presto busted piston

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[emicen]

Or PerformanceTek who are at least 250 miles closer.

[will69176]

There's various folk will map R53s, Lohen being one example. 1320 have been doing it the longest and I think have done the most cars.

One thing to do is IMO don't do a canned tune - IMO the car should physically be at the tuners, where they can monitor air/fuel ratios. Plenty stories of people who have went for a simple tune, which all it did was lean the engine out - hey presto busted piston

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i agree with the live mapping, much the same when i had my S3.

I didn't know Lohen did mapping, would be ideal if they do its only one hour from me.

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Or PerformanceTek who are at least 250 miles closer.


just took a look at performancetek, i guess thats who you use?

They are actually about the same distance as 1320 away from me!

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Or PerformanceTek who are at least 250 miles closer.

looking at this website, makes me wonder...

has anyone put a K20A in a mini before?

[stoney]

1320 are the place to go for mapping an R53 belive me i know .....
Lohen dont do R53 only R56

performace tec dont want your money i phone emailed facebook PM loads of times to be ignored or fobed off with some crappy story then to fine out he booked in another mini the day after i asked to get booked in and told no space or time !!!

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[emicen]

Z Cars did it and I believe a couple of others have.

PerformanceTek prep my race MINI but have also mapped various Cooper S including a mates track car that's running ~250hp and regularly gets it hoop kicked for hours at a time on track [emoji1360]

[MINI William]

For R53's I wouldn't go going anywhere else than 1320MINI the guys knowledge and service seem to be second to none