210bhp Works Kit

[Steve74]

That's it, I've just booked a test drive of the new MCS Works kit - the 210bhp one. After Julz' run yesterday and watching Nenah zoom off I decided that 163bhp isnt enough! Will report back on what it's like (hopefully I get to floor it!).;)

[Nick]

i pick my very own 210bhp works s on Sunday hopefully!

I'll certainly be flooring mine...:D

[Julz]

quote:Originally posted by Steve74

hopefully I get to floor it!;)


Well, with the works you'll have to wait first cause the engine supposedly requires to be run in again!! You'd be a damn site cheaper and faster going to BBR for their 220bhp conversion, I'm sure Nenah and BS will back me up on this one!!;):D

[Nick]

cheaper yes, but what about warranty issues, good thing about the 'works' kit is that it is serviced as normal and doesnt void TLC.

Secondly when it comes to resale, a works car is far more desirable.

Thirdly, anybody ever compared a works car against a BBR car in a straight line?.....im not convinced that there is a performace advantage with BBR's 220 over the works.;)

[Wul]

oooh now theres a challenge if i ever saw one! :eek:

[Nick]

meant to say earlier,,,one thing that is good about the latest mini's is that they are now using a revamped gtrag gearbox. Shorter 3rd and 4th gear ratios for improved accelaeration..

[Julz]

quote:Originally posted by Nick

cheaper yes, but what about warranty issues, good thing about the 'works' kit is that it is serviced as normal and doesnt void TLC.

Secondly when it comes to resale, a works car is far more desirable.

Thirdly, anybody ever compared a works car against a BBR car in a straight line?.....im not convinced that there is a performace advantage with BBR's 220 over the works.;)


ok, here we go......

I've had the BBR fitted for a year now and have been back to JC's in Dundee for a few bits under warranty and my intermediate 1 service.. no probs there!!

Against a JCW in a straight line, wave bye bye (honestly, that eejit'll no be trying that again!!:clown:)... When I had my car in at Grassicks following my safe mode incident, the mechanic came back after 'testing' the car with a big cheesy grin on his face saying it was the most impressive mini he'd ever driven, and they fit JCW and Hartge. Plus, did you not read the infamous Evo article??;)

As for resale, wouldn't know, the only BBR I've heard of being sold was the one Nenah has now and apparently the guy was almost in tears, basically, folks with a BBR love their baby to much to sell!!:D (Alan, you keep quiet now!!)

[GAJ]

I was behind Nenah as she booted hers on Sunday and I felt like I was dragging anchors, even with my lead boots on! Very impressive! My car did have 30 odd stone of Leithers in it though, and a piddling 115bhp!:(

[Scottie]

Ok here is where I enter the ring. I have a JCW with a few bits done and I think my car would give any bbr or hartage 220 bhp conversion a run for their money.

So I think the answer is we have to have a contest but what could the prize to the winner be.

[macblob]

Aye I can certainly say that the BBR left us for dead Gaj.

BTW since when did you weigh 18 stone? lol :p

[GAJ]

I weigh just over 12!;) The weight was in the passenger side! Remember who it was who had to get their seat rebuilt or reinforced or whatever!:D:clown:

[Gismo]

The BBR 240 is just that wee bit much better ;) enough to lose any JCW :blackeye:

[Steve74]

Ok, here is the feedback...

The car I got to test was a run-in 200bhp JCW, with hardly any extras so pretty light.

I test drove the car with one of the service advisors, really nice bloke and he said just go for it.

So initially the car has a little more grunt from low revs but where you most notice it is in fifth and sixth.

But NOT £3800 worth! Maybe it was just this car but I was really disappointed with the test drive. I really got to boot the car but I didn't notice much difference between my own car when I got back in (with lots of heavy kit) and this 200bhp model. Sure 6th was a bit better but maybe only 10%.

I think the 210bhp kit must be a lot better so I would be sure it will be much better Nick but this car was just pants.

I'm going to have to go down the BBR route now, maybe 220 or 240, possibly even the AMD route. But with the spare change I can get brakes and suspension so will most likely avoid the BMW route.

This has been a really big surprise and it felt a bit like the Stepford Wives when the other staff at Dunedin kept on asking me "did you notice the difference". I felt like the only one who didn't get it. No disrespect to anyone who has bought the JCW, it's just not for me.

[Scottie]

That's the thing though when you have a JCW kit with a stated bhp 200 or 210 that is not what you are getting it's actually only anything between 185 - 193 bhp you'll not know until you put it on a rolling road.

However I still stand my challenge for the bbr boys or girls.

[Scottie]

Ok what do you think would win in a straight line between a BMW 330 csl M3 cabrio and a Cooper S Works with a wee bit extra. On the M6 leaving the pay point.

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by ScottieCoop

Ok what do you think would win in a straight line between a BMW 330 csl M3 cabrio and a Cooper S Works with a wee bit extra. On the M6 leaving the pay point.


I would think the E46 M3 Cab (top up) to 80mph ish then the 330 (better aerodymanics) then the MCS. the 6 cyl BMW's are just so fast!

If the MCS had Nitrous....

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by GAJ

I was behind Nenah as she booted hers on Sunday and I felt like I was dragging anchors, even with my lead boots on! Very impressive! My car did have 30 odd stone of Leithers in it though, and a piddling 115bhp!:(


You did keep up on the motorway no bother though...

[GAJ]

Well most cars manage a steady 70 mph these days!;)

[Scottie]

quote:

I would think the E46 M3 Cab (top up) to 80mph ish then the 330 (better aerodymanics) then the MCS. the 6 cyl BMW's are just so fast!

If the MCS had Nitrous....


The thing is he stayed in front:disapprove: but never pulled away I eventually slowed when we reached 135 (road Angel) speed the back of the car was to twitchy.

I would have thought he would have left me standing. I think maybe he was playing with me.

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by ScottieCoop


quote:
I would think the E46 M3 Cab (top up) to 80mph ish then the 330 (better aerodymanics) then the MCS. the 6 cyl BMW's are just so fast!

If the MCS had Nitrous....

The thing is he stayed in front:disapprove: but never pulled away I eventually slowed when we reached 135 (road Angel) speed the back of the car was to twitchy.

I would have thought he would have left me standing. I think maybe he was playing with me.


That's when you press the nitrous button... ;)

[Gismo]

The M3 CSL was toying with you :p my 330 Ci is no match for my BBR in a straight line and especially the corners ;)

Also, be wary of admitting to excessive speeds on public roads, i know in this case you were all on a race track ;)

[Nick]

quote:Originally posted by ScottieCoop

Ok here is where I enter the ring. I have a JCW with a few bits done and I think my car would give any bbr or hartage 220 bhp conversion a run for their money.

Ok I will tag team with you!...lol

Information I have been given by Grassicks in perth BEFORE the new 210bhp kit arrived was that on occasions they were dyno testing works cars up to 214bhp. If you consider the work done by BMW in the works conversion it is easy to see that they are very conservative on their power figures.

Secondly I have read an EVO article which pitched the 210 hartge kit against a works car and the hartge was found to be slower in a straight line. But its not only about the staright line speed, its also about delivery, I have paid more for the works car because its not so much of a frantic drive. You dont have to ring its neck to be fast unlike the hartge.

You may say that you'd never sell and people love their cbbr conversions but no one keeps a car forever it would be ludicrous. Some thing newer and better always comes along and we all want a bit of it, so once again i think for resale the works kit is in pole position.

Cant understand why some people find the works so 'pants'. I have driven a standard S and been a passenger in a works s and the difference was incredible! I was not impressed by the standard car at all.

Whats all this about racing M3's and 330i's? I have had the pleasure of driving both and the M3 is in a different league to a 330 or works cooper s, no comparison. Did you race and compare the performace between the 330 and the works s Fiona??

[Julz]

:DFiona, I know what you mean about the added extras, as I have over £1k worth of exhaust, plus the sports cam upgrade etc..... (where do you stop!!:p) but I don't know what power mine is churning out as it is forbidden to take a supercharged car onto a rolling road!!

Steve, if it's instant giggle factor you require, I'm sure between BS and myself, we'll be able to show you an improvement with the BBR. When I got a test drive, I noticed the power instantly and that's what I like. Next time I see you, I'll take you out for a blast!!

As for wringing it's neck, with the BBR you only have to think about acceleration and it's there, never mind 5th and 6th, why leave 3rd, it's too much fun!!:D:D

p.s. Fiona, twitchy at 135, that's a bit worrying, what tyres are you using??:clown:

[Scottie]

quote:

Whats all this about racing M3's and 330i's? I have had the pleasure of driving both and the M3 is in a different league to a 330 or works cooper s, no comparison. Did you race and compare the performace between the 330 and the works s Fiona??


The Works S being the best ride:approve: I was only or rather I think the other drive was only having some fun at my expense but I did'nae mind.:p

Anyway it's not so much the conversion it's the driver :p that's why women drivers are the best:eek::blackeye::D

[Julz]

quote:Originally posted by ScottieCoop
Anyway it's not so much the conversion it's the driver :p that's why women drivers are the best:eek::blackeye::D


Precisley!!;):kiss:

[Scottie]

quote:[D]

p.s. Fiona, twitchy at 135, that's a bit worrying, what tyres are you using??:clown:


Rubbish tyres some swedish make but when my car returns I will have a better set of feet on the car.

However I have spoken to a couple of people and they say Mini's are bad for that I was thinking of putting a sway bar and stuff on but they said it would not help so I don't know what to think. :disapprove:

[Julz]

Bonnie Scotland might be able to comment there as I know he's changed a few bits around the bum area, on his car that is!! I've not really had any bother at certain speeds with grip, so I can only recommend Toyo Proxes!:)

[Gismo]

Twitch disappeared after adding a rear sway bar, also, the car handles much better too :eek:

[Nick]

quote: Plus, did you not read the infamous Evo article??;)

Is this EVO article online??

[Steve74]

quote:
Cant understand why some people find the works so 'pants'. I have driven a standard S and been a passenger in a works s and the difference was incredible! I was not impressed by the standard car at all.



Just my opinion Nick, for £3800 I would want to notice the difference. It was very minor which was really surprising as I'd always have opted for the Works.

I'll take you up on the BBR show Julz - I'm def. heading that way as Oxford isn't too far from where I'm working right now and BBR seems like a very reasonable price for quite a lot of grunt. Would you recommend AP brakes and other suspension or do you think the stock ones are good enough kit?

[Julz]

I've got the Alta upgrade and I thinks BS' are the AP's, standard would do as they're no bad, depending on your styleeee of driving, I felt a little more comfortable getting some bigger anchors. BBR only upgraded their brakes when they went for the monster upgrade!!:clown:

[MartinSullivan]

quote:Originally posted by Nick

Is this EVO article online??



You can get it here -

EVO Article (http://www.amdtechnikusa.com/documentation/EVO%20-%20November%202003.pdf)

Right click on the link above and select SAVE AS

[Nick]

what a bast***d i cant get link to work!

anybody else having success??

[Nick]

ni its not my link, if you right click on it and chose SAVE AS you can save it. I was trying to click link and it was failing...got it now though!

[Duncan Stewart]

Now, Now children! 200, 210, 220 bhp - the difference is so small you would hardly notice it. :eek: :D

[Duncan Stewart]

quote:Originally posted by Julz
it is forbidden to take a supercharged car onto a rolling road!!

Who told you that?
A rolling road is the only way to properly set up a modified car.
Fiona's car has been roaded and seen lots of Ss in the mags putting out more than standard BMW figures.
You do need a big fan & cool day to ensure enough air gets into the supercharger.

[Paultuk]

Talking about M3's against Mini's.

I used to have an E46 M3, One day whilst in a rush i was travelling down a motorway (race track) doing 140ish and a mini flashed me telling me to move out of the way!!! No idea what model it was? I thought no thank you!!!! So i flicked my paddle shift to 4th and went. I kept going to 170MPH!!! i ran out of road then he caught me up with a huge grin!! It was such a cool experience. Anyway the M3 is gone now and i have My very own JCW210 Mini coming tomorrow all £28k's worth!!! They are so much more fun than the other BMW cars! and a lot cheaper to run!! I had my m3 for a year and had two sets of tires and an extra set for the back! Servicing was a nightmare too! Plus £11 per day for petrol was a bit much!!!

Anyway sorry to bore you people about the joys in my life. I reccommend the M3 to everyone but i wouldnt have one long term, too many costs involved for the amount of fun you can have!! Bikes used to pick on me all the time!

Happy motoring!

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart


quote:Originally posted by Julz
it is forbidden to take a supercharged car onto a rolling road!!

Who told you that?
A rolling road is the only way to properly set up a modified car.
Fiona's car has been roaded and seen lots of Ss in the mags putting out more than standard BMW figures.
You do need a big fan & cool day to ensure enough air gets into the supercharger.


A fan's not supposed to replicate air flowing as it would have to be hell of a big fan. All the bike magazines suggest you dont do it (bike riders are big into BHP and so on) and car mags usually do too. It increases heat dramatically.

Side issue - that EVO article is pretty good - looks like I'm firming up my choices...

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by Paultuk

Talking about M3's against Mini's.

I had my m3 for a year and had two sets of tires and an extra set for the back!


Just keep the Minis traction control switched on. I've almost worn out my front set within 6000 miles! Welcome to NMS by the way.:cool:

[Scottie]

quote:Originally posted by Steve74


quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart


quote:Originally posted by Julz
it is forbidden to take a supercharged car onto a rolling road!!

Who told you that?
A rolling road is the only way to properly set up a modified car.
Fiona's car has been roaded and seen lots of Ss in the mags putting out more than standard BMW figures.
You do need a big fan & cool day to ensure enough air gets into the supercharger.


A fan's not supposed to replicate air flowing as it would have to be hell of a big fan. All the bike magazines suggest you dont do it (bike riders are big into BHP and so on) and car mags usually do too. It increases heat dramatically.

...


Phew I'm glad my car survived.:approve:

[MartinSullivan]

quote:Originally posted by Steve74
Side issue - that EVO article is pretty good - looks like I'm firming up my choices...


Glad its helping Steve, trust I will get a shot in whatever you decide on in return for posting the link :D:p

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by MartinSullivan


quote:Originally posted by Steve74
Side issue - that EVO article is pretty good - looks like I'm firming up my choices...


Glad its helping Steve, trust I will get a shot in whatever you decide on in return for posting the link :D:p


Certainly! :D

[Julz]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart
Who told you that?



BBR! Nuff said!!;)

It is common knowledge that supercharged and even turbo charged engines should be kept well away from rolling roads as serious long term, but not always instant, damage can occur. In order to cool the engine properly to get true figures, a jet engine powering out cold air would be required, not something I carry o=about with me!! I know from Porsche club meets, that often the super and turbo charged engines are turned away from the rolling road people as they do not want to be responsible for damage!

Fiona, you are lucky and I really hope no damage has or will occur, just don't do it again ok!!;):p

[R7 ETH]

A rolling road broke my car !!!!
I was down at a magazine shoot in england and they took it onto the rollers and bust it, i got it fixed for free but i would never go to another rolling road again.

[Heather]

quote:Originally posted by Bonnie Scotland
Also, be wary of admitting to excessive speeds on public roads, i know in this case you were all on a race track ;)

Thought I had stumbled into the mini motorsport section after reading this thread.:p

[Scottie]

quote:

Fiona, you are lucky and I really hope no damage has or will occur, just don't do it again ok!!;):p


No worries I'll not do that again :clown:

[Nick]

quote: BBR! Nuff said!!;)


Funny that at the end of the article however the chosen car was the works s :D

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by Nick


quote: BBR! Nuff said!!;)


Funny that at the end of the article however the chosen car was the works s :D



My chosen car would have been the BBR. I don't see why they chose the works apart from the warranty issues. :p

[Julz]

I'm sure it said the reason they chose the works was because of warranty issues, despite BBR being the better conversion!!:clown:

[Nick]

Certainly the BBR stats look good on paper, but im confidfent the new 210bhp works kit and closer ratio gear box it has will close the gap from that of the previous 197bhp works kit :cool:

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by Nick

Certainly the BBR stats look good on paper, but im confidfent the new 210bhp works kit and closer ratio gear box it has will close the gap from that of the previous 197bhp works kit :cool:


I think you might be right. Only thing is Dunedin quoted £3800 fitted which is an awful lot more than I've heard the 200bhp costs. I might hold off til September anyway and see what the 210 is like. Must be more powerful no?

[Nick]

200bhp kit cost exactly the same...

[Gismo]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart
Now, Now children! 200, 210, 220 bhp - the difference is so small you would hardly notice it. :eek: :D
Hoi, what about 240 ;)

[Duncan Stewart]

Call me daft if you like :clown: :I but how can these companies develop thier engine conversions and know what the BHP output is if they don't use a rolling road?
Is there another way to work out BHP :question:

[GAJ]

They probably just make it up! A lot of it is just marketing. I've seen claims that certain induction kits add 15 bhp and exhausts adding 10 bhp and deep down most folk know its b@ll@cks but it sells!

[Julz]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart

Call me daft if you like :clown: :I but how can these companies develop thier engine conversions and know what the BHP output is if they don't use a rolling road?
Is there another way to work out BHP :question:


When we were at BBR, they had this muckle great Aston Martin engine sitting on their big tester thingy, they remove it from the car and test it in this wee room that's all air flow controlled and other such technical things. Some companies do test their cars on rolling roads as they're not as fussed about long term damage as we would be as it's just another test car to them!!:clown:

[Julz]

quote:Originally posted by Nick

Certainly the BBR stats look good on paper, but im confidfent the new 210bhp works kit and closer ratio gear box it has will close the gap from that of the previous 197bhp works kit :cool:


Close the gap maybe, but at almost 3 times the price I think the BBR is still a better option!;)

[Gismo]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart
Call me daft if you like :clown: :I but how can these companies develop thier engine conversions and know what the BHP output is if they don't use a rolling road?
Fair point, in BBR's case and most probably all tuners, an engine is sourced, in this instance BBR bought their own car as a minimum.
The engine is then worked on as required and results are achieved and confirmed.
Once all the ground work is finalised they go public.

I agree you just don't know if your own engine is at the proposed BHP quoted, that goes for the JCW as well, the figures are taken from the research and development stage.

[broken_brian]

right just to throw a big spanner in the works ;) why are you all quoting bhp figures, it is torque that makes a car go not bhp. as bhp is just a mesurment where torque is the force that makes the car go so what conversion gives you the most torque and that one should be the one that you go for.

:D:D

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by broken_brian

right just to throw a big spanner in the works ;) why are you all quoting bhp figures, it is torque that makes a car go not bhp. as bhp is just a mesurment where torque is the force that makes the car go so what conversion gives you the most torque and that one should be the one that you go for.

:D:D


Is that pulling power as I'd like to know what that would be;):D

[Gismo]

Quite right Brian, more torque and lower in the rev range the better, hence why the diesels are so bl@@dy quick :evil:

[broken_brian]

yup it is pulling power ;)

but no it wont help pulling girlies :p

cooper works 200 bhp will give you 177 lb ft of torque

bbr 220 gives you 196 lb ft

bbr 240 gives you 214 lb ft

so i would go for the middle one because it is cheaper than the works and gives better torque

[Willie M]

<wanders in, reads thread, wnaders back out again>
I'm not getting involved ;)

[Duncan Stewart]

It's not how big your torque or BHP is anyway - it's how you use it! :eek::p;)
I'll go away now having stirred it up again ;)

[Scottie]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart

It's not how big your torque or BHP is anyway - it's how you use it! :eek::p;)

Exactly that's why fast cars driven by Women will always comes first:D

I could even drive a defender 90 and beat you guy's.:p

See ya.:evil::blackeye::D

Edit:- Inserted quote marks for original post

[Nick]

quote:Originally posted by broken_brian

yup it is pulling power ;)

but no it wont help pulling girlies :p

cooper works 200 bhp will give you 177 lb ft of torque

bbr 220 gives you 196 lb ft

bbr 240 gives you 214 lb ft

so i would go for the middle one because it is cheaper than the works and gives better torque



Firstly your quotes are for the 'old' works kit. Secondly it is not a case of having more torque giving better acceleration. The torque greatly helps in gear acceleration and whether or not the torque curve is flat (maximum torque available over a wide range would be perfect)

So essentially good torque low down and in the mod range is good for in gear accleration but not the be all end all.

As an example a BMW 330d produces 204BHP and 302 1Bft of torque an M3 prodcues 340BHP and 288 1BFT of torque in a straight line the M3 would destroy it in any gear.

I will pretend to be an expert but i believe it is to do with power / torque and the ability an engine has to rev high. Was reading an article about the new M5 engine, guy who built it was saying that compared to ther similar engines because theres rev's higher than can attain better acceleration...


any engineers in the house?!????

[broken_brian]

in a straight line yes it would due to the more volatile and explosive nature of petrol compared to diesel

but in everyday driving the diesel would win because it is easier to keep the car on it peak torque curve at lower rpm where in the m3 you would be reving the living daylights out of the engine

[Nick]

quote:Originally posted by broken_brian

in a straight line yes it would due to the more volatile and explosive nature of petrol compared to diesel

but in everyday driving the diesel would win because it is easier to keep the car on it peak torque curve at lower rpm where in the m3 you would be reving the living daylights out of the engine


I agree to a certain extent that the diesel is the more relaxed performer, but having driven an M3 diesel doesnt even get close, you wouldnt have to make it screem to be considerably faster...

but yes diesel is moving up, latest 535d is 270bhp, 413 1BFT torque, serious pace, especially when they put it in the new 335d 0-60mph in 6secs....i expect that will dip under 6secs easily...

[Scottie]

quote:Originally posted by Nick


quote:Originally posted by broken_brian

yup it is pulling power ;)

but no it wont help pulling girlies :p

cooper works 200 bhp will give you 177 lb ft of torque

bbr 220 gives you 196 lb ft

bbr 240 gives you 214 lb ft

so i would go for the middle one because it is cheaper than the works and gives better torque



Firstly your quotes are for the 'old' works kit. Secondly it is not a case of having more torque giving better acceleration. The torque greatly helps in gear acceleration and whether or not the torque curve is flat (maximum torque available over a wide range would be perfect)

So essentially good torque low down and in the mod range is good for in gear accleration but not the be all end all.

As an example a BMW 330d produces 204BHP and 302 1Bft of torque an M3 prodcues 340BHP and 288 1BFT of torque in a straight line the M3 would destroy it in any gear.

I will pretend to be an expert but i believe it is to do with power / torque and the ability an engine has to rev high. Was reading an article about the new M5 engine, guy who built it was saying that compared to ther similar engines because theres rev's higher than can attain better acceleration...


any engineers in the house?!????


Not sure about your ratio's but here is the details on a desiel engine. I own.

Pferdestärken 313
Engine cubic capacity 4921
Fuel Consumption
Urban 16.5mpg - 17.1l/100km
Extra-urban 28.8mpg - 9.8l/100km
Combined 23.0mpg - 12.2l/100km
Engine emissions 332g/km
Engine noise levels 72.0dB
Engine maximum Speed 140mph - 225km/h
Engine acceleration 0-62mph 7.8secs
Maximum output PS 313
at RPM 3750
Maximum torque 553 lbs.ft / 750 Nm
at RPM 2000

Please note: The maximum power output figures are quoted in PS (or Pferdestärken, which is the metric equivalent of horsepower). To convert from metric to imperial horsepower, divide the PS figure by 1.0139.


Oh this is the most powerful production passenger diesel engine and it's our V10 Touareg:eek:

[Steve74]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart

It's not how big your torque or BHP is anyway - it's how you use it! :eek::p;)
I'll go away now having stirred it up again ;)


I have to agree. It's now about how big your boat is, it's all about the motion of the ocean, er Mini ;)

[Nick]

quote:

Oh this is the most powerful production passenger diesel engine and it's our V10 Touareg:eek:





yes that v10 diesel is a cracker its just a shame they put it in a 2 tonne vehichle!

I think we will continue to see diesel engines develop, if you look at the v10 you have VW needed 5 litres to produce that power. BMW are getting close and with only 3...........the race is on..