Petrol Protests

[Sheilz]

Will members of NMS be participating in the day of action or rather inaction at the petrol pumps on 1st April?: :yes nod:

[Mon the fish]

Will this actually work? Surely people will just fill up the day before & after?

Direct (non-violent) action is needed - blockading refineries etc. It's the only way politicians etc will notice - bring the country to it's knees. Do it the French way.

Protests/marches/petitions get ignored. Something that actually causes problems, that will force a reaction, is the only thing that will work IMO.

[Craig]

Why not ..... My GP only needs filled up every 2-3 weeks ;)

[Mon the fish]

My car does 1k miles a year, so even at JCW levels of consumption, I'm ok as well :lol:

[zimbo]

I certainly wont be getting any fuel anyway, BUT something has to be done because the prices of fuel are ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS just now they are way beyond a joke now and 80% of the price is TAX!!! (Apparently) bl%dy Government, money grabbing ba$tard$.

I mean how are we (as a country) meant to get out of the rutt (recession) this country is in if people cant afford to get fuel for their vehicles to get to work, to work to help bring the country out of the crap it's in :frown: :ragin:

This place is going down the drain very quickly and has been for a while now, and it can all be thanked for by the banks and the Government :moonie:

The UK must be right at the top of (or at least VERY VERY close to) the most expensive countries in the world for Fuel :ragin:

[Delboy]

I don't like the price of petrol any more than the next person but what good will it do not going to the pumps on one day?

I'll probably be filling up with petrol today so I wouldn't need to fill up again on Friday anyway.

Seems utterly pointless.

:popcorn:

[Stewart]

Its funny that the EU Rules come in on so many things more than most ill thought out but there in not a European price for fuel or the amount you can Tax on it . They seem to have opinions on everything else.

Right now the Mini is sitting three to four days on the drive. I filled up there and it was five weeks from the last fill up. Nothing to do with the price of Petrol although it is a sore one when I do. Like everything there is a tipping point and I would not hesitate to sell the car if I feel I’m not going to use it, changed days when I was seventeen we lived in our cars more or less driving for the fun of it, You just could not do that these days..

I’m looking forward to the few runs like the HT and Perthshire as I’ll get some fun for my buck instead of dodging potholes in town.

[ELFMAN]

I don't think it'll make a blind bit of difference not to fill up on Friday - all that's going to do is give the Petrol Station employees a quiet day. (and they'll be twice as busy the day before and the day after).

As we know, most of the price we pay at the pumps goes to a succession of gloriously incompetent self-serving Government Mis-Managers who spend it on 2nd homes and various types of Ordinance for whatever conflict they've decided to drop our Forces lads and lasses in this month. I've had no faith in them whatsoever for ages, the last lot were useless and the Con-Dem-ned bunch we have in now are mostly second-rate Public Schoolboys who are so hopeless they couldn't hold down a proper job in the 'real world'. Watching Cameron, Clegg, Milliband and the rest vie with each other for the 'Kn**end of the Month Award' has me crying with despair and laughter in equal measure. Looking for decent ideas and leadership from them is like looking for a black cat in a dark room... that isn't there.

As Mon says, the only thing that would make them take any notice is Direct Action, and how many of us are prepared to do that? The country would still be up s**t creek even if we did... If they took less tax from Fuel, you can bet your bottom dollar/pound/euro that they'd cut it from some vital service elsewhere. The country is BROKE.

Mon says 'Bring the country to its knees'? Sorry folks, save yourself the bother - it's there already.

[N16SHP]

Surely a longer term strategy of avoiding the main players like Shell, BP and Esso and going to the supermarkets would have a better effect than just not filling up for one day?

[Delboy]

Surely a longer term strategy of avoiding the main players like Shell, BP and Esso and going to the supermarkets would have a better effect than just not filling up for one day?

Don't Tesco and ASDA et al get their petrol from the main players anyway?

[N16SHP]

I imagine they would, but I imagine that they would gain less as obviously the supermarket still has to take a cut where as when you fill up from an actually Shell for example, theres no one else but themselves to profit!

[ELFMAN]

Surely a longer term strategy of avoiding the main players like Shell, BP and Esso and going to the supermarkets would have a better effect than just not filling up for one day?

Don't call me Shirley... The Government presumably get the same Tax per litre from Supermarket petrol, so how would that make the Government take notice? All it would do is affect the "Main Players" for a day, and after all, they're only responsible for a fraction of what we pay at the pumps. There are also quite a few NMS members working in the Oil Industry, which is probably going to take a hit from the Budget... Not standing up for huge multinational oil companies, I just don't think the 'protest' of avoiding Shell etc stations would have the desired effect.

[Doug_m]

Would make most sense to block the refineries so stations run out of fuel.
Bring back £1 a litre, im happy with that!

[N16SHP]

Don't call me Shirley... The Government presumably get the same Tax per litre from Supermarket petrol, so how would that make the Government take notice? All it would do is affect the "Main Players" for a day, and after all, they're only responsible for a fraction of what we pay at the pumps. There are also quite a few NMS members working in the Oil Industry, which is probably going to take a hit from the Budget... Not standing up for huge multinational oil companies, I just don't think the 'protest' of avoiding Shell etc stations would have the desired effect.

Yeah, when it's put like that I very much agree with you Euan. I think like others have said that blocking off the refineries is the only way that the government will take notice.

Doug - £1 a litre, I'd also be happy with that!!!

[Delboy]

So what about all the small businesses that would suffer if they can't fill their vehicles with petrol or diesel, or can't get deliveries, because the filling stations are empty? Not to mention people not able to get to work, including perhaps doctors and nurses? There are wider implications from blocking the refineries - it's not as good an idea as it sounds.

And, in any case, do you really think the government will bow to mob rule? No chance.

[Doug_m]

There are wider implications from blocking the refineries - it's not as good an idea as it sounds

Hence the pressure on the government to do something about it!

[Sheilz]

I will be avoiding the pumps on Friday. I think the point of the action is that this will play havoc with the oil companies profits which are calculated on a daily basis. I totally get that people will buy the day before or after, that's not the point, the point is to cause inconvenience. It won't harm small businesses or anyone else. I would also support action to block the refineries etc. The last time the transport industry did this it did have an impact which led to the government outlawing the blocking of refineries. I get what Delboy is saying however, that is ignoring the fact that if the public don't get off their butts and demonstrate some level of objection then they will have no one to blame but themselves if they are pushed under by this greedy grasping government. I think its time we stood up and allowed ourselves to be counted. I would also encourage those who aren't yet feeling too badly squeezed by rocketing prices to go join the passive protest on behalf of others less fortunate than themselves.

[Sheilz]

LOL I think I should clarify the point about previous blockades of refineries. These did have some success as the price of fuel did fall a little bit afterwards. It was the success of the action that led to the government outlawing blockades! If I had a cash cow and felt I was being prevented from gathering all the profits from it, I'd darned well outlaw the thing that was preventing me from doing so!

[Sheilz]

OMG - Fuel prices in Orkney now at £1.65p per litre. That's down right robbery.

[stoney]

well i can not afford to stop away from the petrol staitons i can use a tank of fule a day easy some times !!!

if they where to start blocking the refinires then that would be big damadge to my bussinis as we travel all over the contry to do work and have to send stuff out all the time !!!!!!!!!! and that would then put even more people out of work :sad:

i think you should just take a step off the soap box and have a look at the bigger picture out there !!!!!

[Neil - TXJ]

What about the people who run the petrol stations. These are often small companies who make hardly anymoney from selling petrol but make it from the other sales of newspapers etc. If we avoid them on Friday they will have lost the sale whereas the petrol companies sale will just have been delayed. Apprecciate some are big chains but some are small businesses who are probably struggling to survive and this is unlikely to help and have no impact on the price.

Also if tax was reduced on petrol it would have to go on something else or even more cuts would be required.

[GCA3N]

What about the people who run the petrol stations. These are often small companies who make hardly anymoney from selling petrol but make it from the other sales of newspapers etc. If we avoid them on Friday they will have lost the sale whereas the petrol companies sale will just have been delayed. Apprecciate some are big chains but some are small businesses who are probably struggling to survive and this is unlikely to help and have no impact on the price.

Also if tax was reduced on petrol it would have to go on something else or even more cuts would be required.


7p a litre just now.

[Scottie]

You have to know the retail sites not to go to. Many are not run by the major oil companies yes they have the branding but more often than not they are ran by other companies you have four different types of sites. Also you would be surprised that there is not that mutch profit to be made from fuel not buying for one day will make no difference to the profit margins As to the price of fuel on the islands I can assure you there is not that much margin often rebates are place to help the dealers.

To reduce the cost of fuel you need to look at two things. Scrap the duty but this would need to be replaced by something else to generate income, road tolls get my vote hit the people that do the miles and use the roads but bring in a more fair system for hauliers however get more back on the rails is also my choice

Second we have to look at the global Market, OPEC and non OPEC supply, the various wars around the world all effect the barrel price someone better then me may have an idea about that but back when I started in the oil business the price was around the 20 dollars per barrel.

[The Dogfather]

Oil prices are set by the commodity market not the oil companies, its supply and demand. The prices are controlled by the countries who have the oil reserves, if Saudi Arabia produced oil at a higher rate the oil price would nose dive. Trouble is OPEC would never overproduce as it would make a number of marginal oil fields uneconomic.

When I joined the DTI in 2000 oil was £10 a barrel, now its ten times that, but that isn't always a bad thing.

In the UK Oil and Gas projects that wouldn't have been commercially viable previously are now going ahead and oil rigs that would have been decommissioned because they would have been no longer profitable are staying running for longer. All of this is bringing money into the UK economy, in particular into NE Scotland. It also generates lots of tax revenue, which if lost would mean even more public sector job losses. The large percentage of the price that goes in tax could be removed but the tax would have to be raised elsewhere e.g. income tax.

[Scottie]

You are a 100% correct more margin is made from the shop.
What about the people who run the petrol stations. These are often small companies who make hardly anymoney from selling petrol but make it from the other sales of newspapers etc. If we avoid them on Friday they will have lost the sale whereas the petrol companies sale will just have been delayed. Apprecciate some are big chains but some are small businesses who are probably struggling to survive and this is unlikely to help and have no impact on the price.

Also if tax was reduced on petrol it would have to go on something else or even more cuts would be required.

[Scottie]

you must remember non OPEC supply ie soviet and north sea etc etc etc. Some feel OPEC control is slipping.
Oil prices are set by the commodity market not the oil companies, its supply and demand. The prices are controlled by the countries who have the oil reserves, if Saudi Arabia produced oil at a higher rate the oil price would nose dive. Trouble is OPEC would never overproduce as it would make a number of marginal oil fields uneconomic.

When I joined the DTI in 2000 oil was £10 a barrel, now its ten times that, but that isn't always a bad thing.

In the UK Oil and Gas projects that wouldn't have been commercially viable previously are now going ahead and oil rigs that would have been decommissioned because they would have been no longer profitable are staying running for longer. All of this is bringing money into the UK economy, in particular into NE Scotland. It also generates lots of tax revenue, which if lost would mean even more public sector job losses. The large percentage of the price that goes in tax could be removed but the tax would have to be raised elsewhere e.g. income tax.

[Sheilz]

So am I right in thinking that the majority of people would prefer the price to be lower but on the whole are indifferent to public protest?

You're right Rob, I do get on my soap box a bit. I believe quite passionately in social and fiscal justice. I'm lucky that I can still afford to fuel up my car. My joining the protest is in anticipation of the time that may not be so far ahead when I wont and of course for those who are already suffering a great deal because of fuel poverty. I get your point about you business however have you thought about what will happen when you can't afford to fill up your van(s) or have to downsize resulting in redundancy anyway?

[stoney]

So am I right in thinking that the majority of people would prefer the price to be lower but on the whole are indifferent to public protest?

You're right Rob, I do get on my soap box a bit. I believe quite passionately in social and fiscal justice. I'm lucky that I can still afford to fuel up my car. My joining the protest is in anticipation of the time that may not be so far ahead when I wont and of course for those who are already suffering a great deal because of fuel poverty. I get your point about you business however have you thought about what will happen when you can't afford to fill up your van(s) or have to downsize resulting in redundancy anyway?


yhats just it sheliz i have to be able to fill my van if not we would go bust there are only 3 of us the now anyway and we are doing well but the more the price of fule gos up the more i charge to fit my belts but as we supply mainly the food ind this then has a knock on effect to them so they have to put price up and so ono and on so the more fule gos up the more the customer pay's i under stand that the price of petrol is high but its life im afird and there is no way in hell that it will come down to a £1 for 1L again now :sad: i just think people need to look beyond there own 2 feet and see the bigger veiw

an i think you have started a very contradictive thread to your last one saying you dont want to fly cos of body scaners so go and fill your car to the brip with petrol to take a long drive down south now if petrol was that unafordable you would have been happy to fly and not put prob neer to 2 tanks of petrol in your car with in 2 days IMO !!

[ELFMAN]

This type of situation is the natural culmination of political ineptitude, credit-driven greed (in which a sizeable section of 'Joe Public' is complicit), a deregulated banking system and history-ignorant foreign policy. No matter how you look at it - we lose. You don't get Owt for Nowt, but that's the way it had been going for years... the wolf's at the door now.

[Sheilz]

yhats just it sheliz i have to be able to fill my van if not we would go bust there are only 3 of us the now anyway and we are doing well but the more the price of fule gos up the more i charge to fit my belts but as we supply mainly the food ind this then has a knock on effect to them so they have to put price up and so ono and on so the more fule gos up the more the customer pay's i under stand that the price of petrol is high but its life im afird and there is no way in hell that it will come down to a £1 for 1L again now :sad: i just think people need to look beyond there own 2 feet and see the bigger veiw

an i think you have started a very contradictive thread to your last one saying you dont want to fly cos of body scaners so go and fill your car to the brip with petrol to take a long drive down south now if petrol was that unafordable you would have been happy to fly and not put prob neer to 2 tanks of petrol in your car with in 2 days IMO !!

The two threads are about quite different subjects despite involving transport! One is about an autocratic, illiberal boss who some would say is guilty of bullying, the second is about a government that is using fuel and the oil industry as a whole as a cash cow to cover the financial mess of illegal wars and banking behaviour that verges on the criminal that has been permitted and encouraged by incompetent government.

I think I did say that I am lucky that I can still afford to fill my car with fuel though there may come a day in the not too distant future when I won't be able to do that. However given that I'm paid a reasonable salary it is likely that I will be able to do that for longer than someone on average income. I'm joining the protest for what its worth because I can see the impact of these costs affecting the poorest members of the community. TBH I think I am looking at the bigger picture while I suspect you're not really looking much past the point of your nose.

[GCA3N]

I have to agree sheilz with a lot your saying and I take my hat off to you for standing up and being counted, I think too many of us (and I include myself) sit back and say "oh well nothing we can do about it"

[Sheilz]

Should have added Stoney, we are both on the same side you know, only coming at it from different angles.

[GCA3N]

Should have added Stoney, we are both on the same side you know, only coming at it from different angles.

Er I didn't agree with everything rob said and whose side is anyone on.:thumbs up:

[stoney]

I am my owan side I will look after number one and if that means only looking to the end of my nose then so be it but I would say I have a level head more now than ever before and I see petrol go up and down all be it only 1p or so each time but it all adds up when u are pitting at least 3/4 tanks a week so if people where to block the refinireys it could easy make my bussinis go bust so that would then mean I would lose the flat car ect ect so I may seem a bit harsh on what I am saying but not using a petrol station for a day is stupid IMO I don't see how it's going to help the masses at all

but on the up side if most people are doing it means no Q at the pump in the morning happy days


Sent from Stoney planet

[GCA3N]

but on the up side if most people are doing it means no Q at the pump in the morning happy days


Sent from Stoney planet
:laugh::laugh:

[ELFMAN]

So am I right in thinking that the majority of people would prefer the price to be lower but on the whole are indifferent to public protest?

Sheilz, I don't disagree with your sentiments Re Fuel Pricing and Fuel Poverty, I'm just a bit cynical about the effect this particular 'protest' would have in the great scheme of things. I would however have to say I was certainly NOT 'indifferent to public protest' per se as a legitimate motivator for change.

I've recently been involved locally against a planned Incinerator site near Larkhall/Stonehouse (20,000 letters of protest to Council, loads of Public Meetings, Demos etc - the Council passed the application, but the fight goes on), a while back I marched against World Poverty and Debt, and of course there was the war in Iraq - along with a whole bunch of like-minded people (including my dear departed Mum, the first Demo she had ever attended - in her late 70's!). For years I was involved with CND and supported, through my work and personally, the fight against Apartheid (I go back a long way!). Some of these protests bore fruit, most - well, history bears witness to the rest. Even when there are worthy aims and general consensus, public protest doesn't always have a positive outcome. In that light, I think avoiding petrol stations for a day will make no difference whatsoever to Government/Oil Company attitudes or petrol prices.

The Government has NO MONEY, so the last thing they're going to do is cut a large part of their income by reducing the tax on fuel. Where else is the money going to come from? They're still borrowing massively to keep the country afloat. Only blockading Refineries etc for longer would attract attention (probably the attention of the Police and Armed Forces - if we still have any available...), but then what about people (eg Stoney) whose livelihoods would be adversely affected by such action, possibly leading to loss of contracts and jobs when most people are fighting to stay in work? Also, as a card-carrying petrolhead, I find I'm now having to give some consideration to how and why we use our vehicles - which I've never really had to do before - but from an environmental point of view, maybe that's a positive rather than a negative consequence of high fuel prices - we have diminishing finite resources, so perhaps we have to accept that there's going to be a higher cost involved as time goes on. I'm very lucky in that I don't have long journeys to and from work, so my weekly fuel bill isn't such a big problem, but that's geographical rather than environmental or political choice.

Here's a thought - Pulling out of Afghanistan would arguably have a much greater impact on the National Debt than knocking a few pence off a litre of unleaded, (not to mention returning Wooton Basset to normality from the never-ending procession of our brave lads...), so maybe we should all be out protesting to end the war there (oh, and there's our latest 'foray' into Libya too...) rather than not popping in to our local Shell station for a day. As far as I know, nobody has died (yet) as a result of high petrol prices. The price of fuel and its knock-on effect on goods and services is of course very important, but it can't be taken in isolation when there are so many other economic and political problems which have an equal bearing on our lives today.

Sorry Sheilz, I'll give you back your Soap-Box now (I've given it a quick wipe to remove any residual negative/cynical vibes...) Quite a though-provoking topic you've raised, well done!

[Doug_m]

Stop paying dole scroungers.
Give them food vouchers but not cash in hand. Too much being wasted on drink, fags and drugs. All which can be lived without.

Save £££££££'s and get the country back in the black.

Also back off from other countries problems, sending jets/troups out... Who's paying for this?

[The Dogfather]

Stop paying dole scroungers.
Give them food vouchers but not cash in hand. Too much being wasted on drink, fags and drugs. All which can be lived without.

Save £££££££'s and get the country back in the black.


So someone who's been made redundant through no fault of their own has to have the shame of using food vouchers to feed their family? Nothing like kicking someone when they're down.

[Doug_m]

So someone who's been made redundant through no fault of their own has to have the shame of using food vouchers to feed their family? Nothing like kicking someone when they're down.

Obviously not to that extent.

Meaning repeat offenders, as in the work-shy percentage out there.
Why should we pay for them and not get anything back? Should go out and work for their keep like we do.

Countrys in more debt than ever because of these sorts :/

[GCA3N]

So someone who's been made redundant through no fault of their own has to have the shame of using food vouchers to feed their family? Nothing like kicking someone when they're down.


Are these in the minority Paul, we really do have a system that gets hugely abused and TBH what is it going to take to change this culture.

[Bazthemod]

My dad runs a small haulage company so the fuel prices are hitting him quite badly. So he has put his prices up, just a massive domino effect.

The refineries will not be blocked as the government are threatening to remove the PCP License of any company found to be doing so. The same applies for any go slow convoys.

Haulage firms are already on their arse without losing their PCP license along with the couple of days of being out of work to actually protest.

Hence why this station boycott has come along but as said it will make no difference what so ever.

[AndyP & Lenore]

Opens door and walks in.

Takes deep breath.

Thinks better of it

Steps back out and closes door softly behind him. :blush:

A.

[GCA3N]

Opens door and walks in.

Takes deep breath.

Thinks better of it

Steps back out and closes door softly behind him. :blush:

A.
:laugh:

[gillianmcd]

Opens door and walks in.

Takes deep breath.

Thinks better of it

Steps back out and closes door softly behind him. :blush:

A.

Wise move ;)

[Sheilz]

My goodness what a range of views! Yah! The forum has come alive again!

Points I would like to come back to is Euan's assertion that the country has no money. I do believe that the country is being a fed a line for political purposes. The tories have arrived with an agenda to out-Thatcher Thatcher and how better to do it than to make the public believe the country is skint, on the bone of its a*se, and that embracing tory policy is the only way to achieve it. I do accept the economy is not in a healthy state but no where near as bad as they make it out to be. The tories are at it and the great British mug is buying into it hook line and sinker.

On a similar vein I think I would be extremely wary of falling for the divide and conquer tactics being very successfully employed by the government. I don't think I can remember a time that has seen so many different groups of people at the throats of others. Do people not see what this vile self-seeking bunch of hoorah hendrys are up to? Workers V the Unemployed. Public V Private Sector, vicious campaigns against the sick and disabled, those who benefited from free edcuation V those who deserve similar entitlement? Thatcher destroyed the heart of the country in the 80's now her spawn are ripping out its soul. Its not an edifying sight or sound.

[Sheilz]

My dad runs a small haulage company so the fuel prices are hitting him quite badly. So he has put his prices up, just a massive domino effect.

The refineries will not be blocked as the government are threatening to remove the PCP License of any company found to be doing so. The same applies for any go slow convoys.

Haulage firms are already on their arse without losing their PCP license along with the couple of days of being out of work to actually protest.

Hence why this station boycott has come along but as said it will make no difference what so ever.


Its this kind of devious government tactics that the public need to challenge. If the transport industry acted with unity I couldn't imagine the government being able to take away all their pcp licences. The fact they set aside driving regulations at the end of the severe winter weather to manage backlogs etc gives the game away because transport is too important for this kind of punitive action to be taken against a whole industry. The biggest problem is achieving unity. The Great British Public is so utterly cowed by its government that you have to wonder if it has any fight in it.

[Gismo]

I have to agree sheilz with a lot your saying and I take my hat off to you for standing up and being counted, I think too many of us (and I include myself) sit back and say "oh well nothing we can do about it"I voted with my feet and left the UK, still, petrol prices are going up, I pay on average $3.50 per gallon now

[ELFMAN]

So I'm one of the 'Great British Mugs'... Sheilz, if the country ISN'T broke, then why the huge Deficit? There's MASSIVE Government borrowing, which was in vogue when 'New Labour' (what an insult to Socialism they were...) were in power, and continues today. I will NEVER 'embrace Tory Policy', but I don't think it would be a whole lot better under any other Government in the current circumstances - what would Milliband's lot - or any other group of Numpties - be doing at the moment? They were going to have to make pretty drastic cuts as well, maybe not just as quickly, but they would have to tackle the situation somehow... I say again, WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM?

Your assertion seems to be that 'The Government' (Con-Dem or is that ANY Government?) is actually magnifying or even 'making up' the financial crisis to fool the Public in order to propagate their political ideology? I agree wholeheartedly with your Socialist principles and your hatred of Thatcher (I remember the 80's too), and I wouldn't trust Cameron and his 2nd rate Public Schoolboys' Club further than I could fling them, but I think you're taking the Conspiracy Theory a bit too far in this particular instance. The country (and the rest of the world) has been living on tick for the past few years, when Gordon Brown sold off his Socialist principles along with the Gold Reserves and jumped into bed with the Bankers, Britain sailed further down the Amazon of debt. The consequences of this 'enjoy now, pay later' approach will now be visited (as usual) firstly on the most vulnerable of our society as essential services get cut, and this will percolate through to everyone in time - as people are noticing already. I think it's quite sensible not to trust politicians of any persuasion, but to think that this Global Recession is a trumped-up means to an end is entering 'X-Files' territory.

As for 'Benefit Scroungers' being one of the major causes of the financial malady - I have to say that while this is a problem, not everyone 'on the Dole' is a 'scrounger' or in any way work-shy or dishonest. Most folks on benefit are trying their best to find work, and they shouldn't all be tarred with the same broad brush. Remember that in the current financial situation, any one of us could find ourselves out of work at any time, so don't be quick to judge...The Benefit 'problem' is absolutely dwarfed by the gross financial mismanagement of the Banking Industry, Government and assorted Business interests. Why not pursue with equal vigour the Multinaltionals and Millionaires who are indulging in dodgy business and Tax Avoidance which would make the 'Benefit Cheats' cost look like kids pocket-money.

[GCA3N]

I voted with my feet and left the UK, still, petrol prices are going up, I pay on average $3.50 per gallon now

quite right Alan.

[GCA3N]

So I'm one of the 'Great British Mugs'... Sheilz, if the country ISN'T broke, then why the huge Deficit? There's MASSIVE Government borrowing, which was in vogue when 'New Labour' (what an insult to Socialism they were...) were in power, and continues today. I will NEVER 'embrace Tory Policy', but I don't think it would be a whole lot better under any other Government in the current circumstances - what would Milliband's lot - or any other group of Numpties - be doing at the moment? They were going to have to make pretty drastic cuts as well, maybe not just as quickly, but they would have to tackle the situation somehow... I say again, WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM?

Your assertion seems to be that 'The Government' (Con-Dem or is that ANY Government?) is actually magnifying or even 'making up' the financial crisis to fool the Public in order to propagate their political ideology? I agree wholeheartedly with your Socialist principles and your hatred of Thatcher (I remember the 80's too), and I wouldn't trust Cameron and his 2nd rate Public Schoolboys' Club further than I could fling them, but I think you're taking the Conspiracy Theory a bit too far in this particular instance. The country (and the rest of the world) has been living on tick for the past few years, when Gordon Brown sold off his Socialist principles along with the Gold Reserves and jumped into bed with the Bankers, Britain sailed further down the Amazon of debt. The consequences of this 'enjoy now, pay later' approach will now be visited (as usual) firstly on the most vulnerable of our society as essential services get cut, and this will percolate through to everyone in time - as people are noticing already. I think it's quite sensible not to trust politicians of any persuasion, but to think that this Global Recession is a trumped-up means to an end is entering 'X-Files' territory.

As for 'Benefit Scroungers' being one of the major causes of the financial malady - I have to say that while this is a problem, not everyone 'on the Dole' is a 'scrounger' or in any way work-shy or dishonest. Most folks on benefit are trying their best to find work, and they shouldn't all be tarred with the same broad brush. Remember that in the current financial situation, any one of us could find ourselves out of work at any time, so don't be quick to judge...The Benefit 'problem' is absolutely dwarfed by the gross financial mismanagement of the Banking Industry, Government and assorted Business interests. Why not pursue with equal vigour the Multinaltionals and Millionaires who are indulging in dodgy business and Tax Avoidance which would make the 'Benefit Cheats' cost look like kids pocket-money.

As usual some great points Euan. I read somewhere last year that the top 100 earners (or so, can't remember the number) in the country earned approx £7 billion pounds and paid £70 million in taxes, where's the equality there.

As said I can't recall the exact details but what I do remember is them saying that high earners on average, pay approx 10p in the pound on tax.

[Forbes]

So he has put his prices up, just a massive domino effect.

He now does 2 for 1 Tuesdays?

[ELFMAN]

I had another thought Re. Sheilz' point about the Tories. If it's their intention to manipulate the situation to implement their particular political ideology, how are they going to achieve that by making themselves massively unpopular and risking getting voted out next time around, when everybody has conveniently forgotten how equally useless New Labour were?

Hmmm... Maybe she's right after all - they never did have any common sense.

[Delboy]

Woops, I filled up this morning :hand:.

At least I used Tesco and not any of the bad oil companies!

Thought it would be nice and empty due to the petrol protest boycott but it was just as mobbed as usual...

[stoney]

well i am off to fill up now as got to drive for 150m for work and have been thro a tank allready to day !!!!!!!!!

[Sheilz]

Every time I passed the shell garage on Andie Drive it seemed to be busier than the time before!

Euan I totally agree with you re tax avoidance making benefits fiddles look like pocket money. It was only this week that it became public that Ian Wood is about to relocate one if his subsidiary companies to the Channel Islands to avoid paying its NI bill. He isn't the first in this area to do that. Craig Group made that move years ago. It is immoral.

[N16SHP]

Euan I totally agree with you re tax avoidance making benefits fiddles look like pocket money. It was only this week that it became public that Ian Wood is about to relocate one if his subsidiary companies to the Channel Islands to avoid paying its NI bill. He isn't the first in this area to do that. Craig Group made that move years ago. It is immoral.

I personally agree with what he's doing. If he's got the money and assests to be able to move to the Channel Islands to avoid paying tax, I don't think if any one of us were in his position would stay and pay the taxes, we'd all move too!

[Stewart]

Asda sold 12.9p petrol by mistake in Bradford

Asda has admitted drivers paid just 12.9p a litre for petrol after staff put a decimal point in the wrong place.
About 50 motorists stocked up on unleaded fuel at the petrol station in Rooley Lane, Bradford, West Yorkshire, on Thursday.
Drivers queued up to use the automatic card-payment pumps for about two hours until the mistake was spotted.
Some motorists also filled up petrol cans with the bargain fuel after word spread around the city.
An Asda spokesman said: "For a couple of hours some lucky customers got some petrol at the wrong price at our Rooley Lane store."

:thumbs up:

[Sheilz]

Asda sold 12.9p petrol by mistake in Bradford

Asda has admitted drivers paid just 12.9p a litre for petrol after staff put a decimal point in the wrong place.
About 50 motorists stocked up on unleaded fuel at the petrol station in Rooley Lane, Bradford, West Yorkshire, on Thursday.
Drivers queued up to use the automatic card-payment pumps for about two hours until the mistake was spotted.
Some motorists also filled up petrol cans with the bargain fuel after word spread around the city.
An Asda spokesman said: "For a couple of hours some lucky customers got some petrol at the wrong price at our Rooley Lane store."

:thumbs up:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Sheilz]

I personally agree with what he's doing. If he's got the money and assests to be able to move to the Channel Islands to avoid paying tax, I don't think if any one of us were in his position would stay and pay the taxes, we'd all move too!

This is an organization whose employees at all levels will benefit from the public services, utilities and national security that NI contributions go towards. There may also be workers in this company whose wages are so low that there is also dependency on top up benefits. This is not an individual trying to save a few bucks but a company avoiding their financial obligations. Its avoidance on a massive scale.

[ELFMAN]

I personally agree with what he's doing. If he's got the money and assests to be able to move to the Channel Islands to avoid paying tax, I don't think if any one of us were in his position would stay and pay the taxes, we'd all move too!

Does he still live in the UK? If so I reckon he shouldn't be able to benefit from ANY Tax-Funded services like NHS, Police, Fire Service etc. That seems fair to me. If you don't want to contribute, you don't get the services - Simples! So if he gets sick and on fire after being mugged - tough.

[Gismo]

Euan, I'm kinda in the same boat, although i live in the USA i still qualify for NHS treatment and the state pension.
Main reason being i've made all the correct contributions and in fact in my state pension deal i've overpaid.
For others looking into it it's worth checking to see if you've made the required payments and then you may elect to stop making payments, if you're self employed that is

[N16SHP]

Does he still live in the UK? If so I reckon he shouldn't be able to benefit from ANY Tax-Funded services like NHS, Police, Fire Service etc. That seems fair to me. If you don't want to contribute, you don't get the services - Simples! So if he gets sick and on fire after being mugged - tough.

He still lives in Aberdeen, and Euan I very much agree with your thinking in terms of if he doesn't pay taxes then he shouldn't be entitled to the benefits, but when your worth close to £900m I wouldn't be too worried about the NHS. As for the police and fire service well that's a different story.

Sir Ian used to dine in his restaurant every Friday night and is one of the most unassuming rich guys. I've seen guys with less than half his money act like they are something and every week he'd take time to ask how you are and even remembered stuff you did/were going to do. His son on the other hand...what a bell!!!

[Sheilz]

He still lives in Aberdeen, and Euan I very much agree with your thinking in terms of if he doesn't pay taxes then he shouldn't be entitled to the benefits, but when your worth close to £900m I wouldn't be too worried about the NHS. As for the police and fire service well that's a different story.

Sir Ian used to dine in his restaurant every Friday night and is one of the most unassuming rich guys. I've seen guys with less than half his money act like they are something and every week he'd take time to ask how you are and even remembered stuff you did/were going to do. His son on the other hand...what a bell!!!


One of my boys went to RGC with his boy. LOL Kris had £2 pocket money while the young Wood had about £40. His old man may be an unassuming chap in his personal life but in business he's as ruthless as the next one. Even if with private health and dental care the staff who work in these establishments are trained by the NHS and universities funded by the taxpayer. I can understand Joe Bloggs wanting to minimise his/her tax burden, when you're talking normal amounts of money that makes sense but not for a multi-million pound organisation that benefits so much from the infrastructure that we all contribute to. His employees will have to pay their NI its the company element of it that is avoided. As I said the Craig Group have done that for years.

[Mon the fish]

If the option to reduce your tax liability is there, you'll do it. I would. Pretty sure everyone else would rather the money was in their pocket than the taxman's.

Not saying it's morally right, but I would make the same decision.

But it doesn't help cut the trillion £ deficit that last useless government left us!

[N16SHP]

His old man may be an unassuming chap in his personal life but in business he's as ruthless as the next one.

That's what makes him so good at what he does though, you don't get anywhere in business by being friends with everyone. When its business, you've to be ruthless, and I admire him for that.


If the option to reduce your tax liability is there, you'll do it. I would. Pretty sure everyone else would rather the money was in their pocket than the taxman's.

Not saying it's morally right, but I would make the same decision.

But it doesn't help cut the trillion £ deficit that last useless government left us!

That's what my point was, if we were in the same position, we'd do it to, whether morally right or not! Whether you have some money or heeps of money, you still don't pay more than you have to if you can avoid it.

[ELFMAN]

That's what makes him so good at what he does though, you don't get anywhere in business by being friends with everyone. When its business, you've to be ruthless, and I admire him for that.
That's what my point was, if we were in the same position, we'd do it to, whether morally right or not! Whether you have some money or heeps of money, you still don't pay more than you have to if you can avoid it.

What if it was YOU he was being ruthless with Neil? :smilewinkgrin:

I'm not against anyone making money (as long as they do it 'legally' - spot the loopholes! - and without exploitation - spot the elastic definition!), and I certainly wouldn't argue that anyone should pay MORE than they have to. He's probably worked damned hard for his money, but most of these very rich types have a habit of not actually paying all that they SHOULD - the word 'Avoid' is a key one here. And isn't it funny how the immensely well-off miraculously seem to grow Knighthoods... although I dare say this chap probably deserves it slightly more than Fred Goodwin, the Ex Royal Banker and current Total D*ck.

It all depends on your personal moral standpoint and your conscience at the end of the day... I'd like to think Sir Ian does a few Charitable acts with some of that £900 Million though.... :yes nod:

[ELFMAN]

:thumbs up:
Euan, I'm kinda in the same boat, although i live in the USA i still qualify for NHS treatment and the state pension.
Main reason being i've made all the correct contributions and in fact in my state pension deal i've overpaid.
For others looking into it it's worth checking to see if you've made the required payments and then you may elect to stop making payments, if you're self employed that is

You're all paid up, so that's cool! :thumbs up:

[Neil - TXJ]

[B] I'd like to think Sir Ian does a few Charitable acts with some of that £900 Million though.... :yes nod:

I think he has set up his own charitable trust which donates many millions to charity.

[Gismo]

I think he has set up his own charitable trust which donates many millions to charity.And can be written off against tax :Whistle: but good on him for doing it :thumbs up:

[N16SHP]

What if it was YOU he was being ruthless with Neil? :smilewinkgrin:


Well, if you live by the sword you die by the sword, and if he was ruthless with me, then its all part of business isn't it. If you get your fingers brunt once, you won't do it again! (If you haven't already guessed, I share his attitude in business. Lord Sugar springs to mind as another one. Don't get me wrong, not all businessmen are like that but the successful ones mostly are)

Does he deserve his knighthood? Yeah probably, as he built the family business from nothing into a multi national company.

As for a charitably donation, does £50m to Aberdeen City Council to help redesign and rebuild a landmark area in the city centre which is rather run down and unused? I think he could of maybe found something better to do with it, but £50m to his own city, you gotta admire that I suppose!

[Sheilz]

The £50m comes at a price - the destruction of UTG that was developed on land donated to the people of Aberdeen by Robert the Bruce for the common good. That £50m is a business move for Wood and his cronies to get their mitts on the heart of Aberdeen. If that's a charitable donation then tomorrow the pigs will be flying. As you say he's a ruthless business man.

[N16SHP]

The £50m comes at a price - the destruction of UTG that was developed on land donated to the people of Aberdeen by Robert the Bruce for the common good. That £50m is a business move for Wood and his cronies to get their mitts on the heart of Aberdeen. If that's a charitable donation then tomorrow the pigs will be flying. As you say he's a ruthless business man.

Perhaps I'm just being naive, but until you told me the historic meaning of the gardens, I had no idea why such a drab bit of land was being unused. Regardless of its historic value, no one uses it apart from the drunks and drugies to find a place for some shelter and occationally the odd group of folk here or there when the sun is out (very rare in Aberdeen I know). I'd support any change for the area, there are far too many people (and I'm not directing this at anyone on here) stuck in the past. People and places move on, and Aberdeen needs to do the same. Having a nice re-invented area to meet up, have a coffee in the nice weather and expand the international market that brings in people from all around Aberdeen when its here...surely cannot be a bad thing.

[ELFMAN]

Very interesting discussion folks, (which admittedly has gone a bit 'Off Topic' from the Petrol Protest) prompted me to do a bit of Googling.
Came across this, which is a documentary about Aberdeen City Centre, Union Street etc.

Check it out on: www.thekiosque.com/tag/sir-ian-wood/

My interest stems from the fact that many years ago I used to regularly visit relatives in Aberdeen (my uncle, after retiring as a Railway Engine driver, was Caretaker at Robert Gordon's College) when I was a wee boy (or a 'Loon' as he used to call me), so I have happy memories of Aberdeen as a bustling and impressive place (and the beach at Fraserburgh too!). I haven't been back for about 20 years, so it was a bit of a shock to hear that things weren't perhaps as rosy as they should be, considering the Oil Wealth of the last few decades... Aberdeen's a great city, and it should be getting the care and attention it deserves. Perhaps the injection of £50 million (for whatever reason - altruistic or speculative) as part of a regeneration scheme might not be a bad thing if it helps bring some life back into an area which has possibly been neglected for too long. I know there are other proposed schemes (the Arts Centre), but it seems such a shame that because of all the arguments nothing seems to be happening. Gardens in Aberdeen, Trams in Edinburgh - can't we get anything right any more? What's happening to our wee country that helped build the world?

As for Robert The Bruce's legacy, and the UTG, I'm a great History buff, and understand Sheilz' passionate point of view, but I also realise that sometimes you have to let go of the past to get to the future... not saying that I'm a supporter of all things 'Modern' (have you SEEN my clothes?), but it might be better to put nostalgia on the back burner if the result of the endless bickering is the slow but sure atrophy of a once proud city centre. I read that Annie Lennox was/is vehemently opposed to the 'Sir Ian' option, but as was pointed out, Annie hasn't lived in Aberdeeen for a long long time - maybe she remembers it as I do... One thing's for sure whatever your point of view, faded glory doesn't favour anyone except Photographers and Pigeons.

Lunch break over, must go back and earn some of my future £Millions... (some bleedin' hope).

[Sheilz]

UTG is a much valued 'lung' in a city centre not so long ago identified as being the most polluted in Europe. The gardens are full of mature trees and beautifully landscaped. They have been neglected however basically they are a pretty and peaceful oasis in a harsh, busy city centre. Contrary to the propaganda spouted by the Wood camp, the gardens are beautiful and used my many people from all walks of life. The excuse that its used merely by drunks and drug users is complete and utter nonsense. The campaign to destroy the city's heritage has tried every dirty trick there is in the book to portray the gardens as a run down den for dodgers and alcoholics. At one point he even claimed that the pupils from RGC were banned from going to the gardens in their lunch break because the place was so dangerous. This was of course utter rubbish and proven to be so. The plan that Wood came up with is one that was rejected many many years ago for very good reason. He wants a Civic Square unfortunately one that comes in at at minimum of £250m to be paid by whom? Certainly not by Ian Wood. Aberdeen is as most people would admit subject to more cold dreich days than warm sunny ones, yet this civic square which we are variably told is to be an hotel, a 400 underground carpark, a majestic museum, a quality shopping centre, a place for people to enjoy outdoor eating - forget the icy blasts coming up Bridge St and Market St or the significant population of over-friendly seagulls thieving food from hands and plates - it is in effect to be all things to all men. Wood was so convinced that Aberdonians would snap at his hands for his £50m that a public consultation took place with the overwhelming majority saying Thank You but No Thank You, that despite the default setting on the online document reverting to a 'Yes' I support the plan when those who had voted' No' went to add very strong criticisms of the project. When the information was collated it was found that many who Woods team claimed supported the project had in fact made extremely negative comments on the plan. When the results were finally revealed Wood hastily changed tack with him and cronies claiming it was not a vote for public support only a consultation that didnt matter. Yet more people voted in this exercise than voted in the consultation for the Edinburgh Tramline.

The fact is UTG is part of our city's topographical heritage and its not for Wood, Milne and Michie to exploit for financial gain. UTG is as important to Aberdeen as Princess St Gardens is to Edinburgh. I think its outrageous that a handful of exceedingly rich but greedy people want it destroyed for the sake of the great god mammon. If Ian Woods £50m was truly a gift there would be no strings attached to it. He could have his civic square on the site of St Nicholas House which will soon be vacated by the Council. That is the natural home for such a development, in front of the old Provost Skene Square with the majestic spires of Marischall College behind it. Why does Wood ignore the obvious? I'll tell you why, its so that odious, vile little man who builds inferior houses t extortionate prices can get his greedy little mitts on the Denburn Valley. Just as he has destroyed Pittodrie so he plans to destroy the Denburn.

Euan, for every one article such as you found supporting the destruction of our heritage I could download literally hundreds outraged at Woods Folly.

[Mon the fish]

Denburn was ruined when the dual carriageway was put in - the rear of some of the buildings on Belmont St are awful. Bring back Schoolhill station!

[ELFMAN]

Sheilz, while I was looking into this it did strike me that a comparison with Princes' Street Gardens in Edinburgh could obviously be drawn here, and I'm more in favour of public access to relaxing green stuff as opposed to corporate concrete, but to be honest, this is a can of worms - there are so many conflicting pictures being painted, not to mention some cunningly hidden profit-driven agendas, possibly all backed by 'documenatry evidence', that I'm bowing out of this debate before my obvious ignorance of the actual situation causes any more consternation.

I'll leave the Loons and Quines to sort it out and hope that something positive for the people and the city comes out of it... eventually.

[N16SHP]

UTG is a much valued 'lung' in a city centre not so long ago identified as being the most polluted in Europe. The gardens are full of mature trees and beautifully landscaped. They have been neglected however basically they are a pretty and peaceful oasis in a harsh, busy city centre. Contrary to the propaganda spouted by the Wood camp, the gardens are beautiful and used my many people from all walks of life. The excuse that its used merely by drunks and drug users is complete and utter nonsense. The campaign to destroy the city's heritage has tried every dirty trick there is in the book to portray the gardens as a run down den for dodgers and alcoholics. At one point he even claimed that the pupils from RGC were banned from going to the gardens in their lunch break because the place was so dangerous. This was of course utter rubbish and proven to be so. The plan that Wood came up with is one that was rejected many many years ago for very good reason. He wants a Civic Square unfortunately one that comes in at at minimum of £250m to be paid by whom? Certainly not by Ian Wood. Aberdeen is as most people would admit subject to more cold dreich days than warm sunny ones, yet this civic square which we are variably told is to be an hotel, a 400 underground carpark, a majestic museum, a quality shopping centre, a place for people to enjoy outdoor eating - forget the icy blasts coming up Bridge St and Market St or the significant population of over-friendly seagulls thieving food from hands and plates - it is in effect to be all things to all men. Wood was so convinced that Aberdonians would snap at his hands for his £50m that a public consultation took place with the overwhelming majority saying Thank You but No Thank You, that despite the default setting on the online document reverting to a 'Yes' I support the plan when those who had voted' No' went to add very strong criticisms of the project. When the information was collated it was found that many who Woods team claimed supported the project had in fact made extremely negative comments on the plan. When the results were finally revealed Wood hastily changed tack with him and cronies claiming it was not a vote for public support only a consultation that didnt matter. Yet more people voted in this exercise than voted in the consultation for the Edinburgh Tramline.

The fact is UTG is part of our city's topographical heritage and its not for Wood, Milne and Michie to exploit for financial gain. UTG is as important to Aberdeen as Princess St Gardens is to Edinburgh. I think its outrageous that a handful of exceedingly rich but greedy people want it destroyed for the sake of the great god mammon. If Ian Woods £50m was truly a gift there would be no strings attached to it. He could have his civic square on the site of St Nicholas House which will soon be vacated by the Council. That is the natural home for such a development, in front of the old Provost Skene Square with the majestic spires of Marischall College behind it. Why does Wood ignore the obvious? I'll tell you why, its so that odious, vile little man who builds inferior houses t extortionate prices can get his greedy little mitts on the Denburn Valley. Just as he has destroyed Pittodrie so he plans to destroy the Denburn.

Euan, for every one article such as you found supporting the destruction of our heritage I could download literally hundreds outraged at Woods Folly.

Safe to say we're going to agree to disagree Sheilz :idunno:

[Sheilz]

LOL Neil, I think that would be a good idea. I almost tore up my membership of a certain Scottish political party because of the duplicity in the handling of UTG. I often wish I was more passionate about stuff so that I could enjoy swinging off the leg of oil rigs or blocking whaling ships etc. Much more exciting than being chained to Elm trees! So now UTG has gone the way of the fuel protests. Anyone got any tips for driving to Switzerland or Austria? Am on hols next and one young miss has said she's like us to go driving there. Would make a nice change from the A90!

[GCA3N]

I could enjoy swinging off the leg of oil rigs!


hey leave oil rigs alone:hand::smilewinkgrin:

[N16SHP]

hey leave oil rigs alone:hand::smilewinkgrin:

Looks for cover...this could get nasty lol!!!

[Gismo]

hey leave oil rigs alone:hand::smilewinkgrin:


Looks for cover...this could get nasty lol!!!Watching very closely :Whistle:

[ELFMAN]

I often wish I was more passionate about stuff

Sheilz... You could've fooled me! :smilewinkgrin:
You Go Girl! :thumbs up:

[Sheilz]

Oil rigs - manifestation of man's greed and contempt for the natural environment :computer: :nag::Whistle:

[Mini Ecosse]

Oil rigs - manifestation of man's greed and contempt for the natural environment :computer: :nag::Whistle:

And it went up another 1P per litre yesterday! :argh: