Another F1 sham

[john]

What can I say!!!

Disgusting!!

[Stewart]

See I like the Rallying but after the start blah.... with this. I'd still go to see one all the same.

What did I miss?

[MINI William]

Totaly agree. Should never have happened

[Crombers]

It's a beautiful day :hand:

[Stewart]

Aaaaaa right seen it now, hate when they pull over to let there team mate win even if it is there own idea....aye right as if he was not told!

[Crombers]

It's a team sport & DC informs us that all the teams give out orders anyway :thumbs up:

[The Dogfather]

Blatant team orders, both drivers should be disqualified

[Crombers]

Blatant team orders, both drivers should be disqualified

:moonie: Oi you, naff off. Dinna you be trying to spoil my day :smilewinkgrin:



(Gotta feeling this will be looked into right enough :frown:)

[The Dogfather]

Ferrari have already been fine £100k, which is a pittance, but the race result stands however they've been referred to the FIA which could see action taken later I guess.

Personally, I'm a little glad they didn't change the result as that was one of the things that ruined previous championships and it also means that Vettel didn't narrow the gap between him and Hamilton as much as he would have done if he'd won the race.

[GCA3N]

The interviews at the end said a lot. Alonso making out he overtook when massa made a mistake and massa well he said it all when asked about team orders.

I mean whether or not you agree with the rules they are there and Ferrari have deliberately broken them they really should be punished by striping them of the points.

[Gismo]

Absolutely disgusting :ragin:
I noticed this thread but didn't read it before i could watch the delayed broadcast here in the USA, Alonso should be banned from racing and the Ferrari team should be thrown out.
I'm a long time Ferarri supporter but no longer want to be associated with them from a fan stand point.

A sad day for motorsport

[stoney]

shocking should be some kind of backlash for that !!!!!! they should be alowed to race not be told let your team mate thro !!!!!

[N16SHP]

The way I see it, is I agree with DC and Eddie that the rules are there in black and white NO TEAM ORDERS. But without question team orders take place. I believe had Felipe let Alonso close in on him and make it look like an overtake maybe a controlled 'duel' for a couple of corners, however he was so incredibly disgusted by the whole thing, I think he made it deliberately obvious that there were team orders in play.

I'm not really a huge Massa fan, nor Alonso for that matter, but I feel for Felipe that he has been robbed. You could see how awkward it was for Alonso and Felipe as they stood talking about it. My biggest hope, is that Alonso fails to finish the next two races or finishes way down the points, and we'll see Massa standing there grinning saying I told you so! It's still far too early for team orders IMO!

[john]

I'm not a gambler BUT if I was and I had a bet on the race result and lost because of team orders I would be mighty p!ssed off, this is no different to a boxer rigging a fight!!

[euan]

I really don't like Ferrari, nor do I like being treated like a fool by a pr bod. Shocking decision making by Ferrari today. Alonso should hang his head in shame.

[GCA3N]

I really don't like Ferrari, nor do I like being treated like a fool by a pr bod. Shocking decision making by Ferrari today. Alonso should hang his head in shame.

Is it Alonso's fault though is he not just obeying team orders.

[john]

MOTO GP is on telly now, no team orders..

[euan]

Is it Alonso's fault though is he not just obeying team orders.

Alonso made his point clearly on the radio, he wanted them to get massa out of the way. He doesn't like fast team mates, hurts his ego.

It's like Ferrari have learned nothing though, the deepest days of f1 were blatant team orders, nearly all by Ferrari to let schumi win. Ruined it for me!

[The Dogfather]

Ferrari are a disgrace to the sport and Alonso isn't as good as he thinks he is.

He was out-performed by Hamilton at Mclaren and cried foul, and today he was out-performed by Massa and cried foul, the difference being Mclaren stood up to the little prima donna.

[baptie]

Alonso isn't as good as he thinks he is.

Tottally Agree, 8 out of 10 fails in F1 contain elements of Alonso.

was gutting myself at the post race footage with Jake/DC and Jordan, Top Laugh

[minimad]

what a laugh you guys are giving me, so let me see what your all trying to say is ferrari cheated in sundays grand prix mmmm dont you all think that this goes on in every team in f1??????

[zimbo]

So the big baby Alonso spat his dummy out of the PRAM again, so poor Massa who is leading the race has to give up his position for that idiot Alonso who thinks hes gods gift to F1... :frown:

That race was a total load of BS, Massa was winning that race on his own merits and was forced to have to settle for second place, NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS, that was team orders 100% without a doubt. They should have been disqualified from that race and probably been even banned for the next one or two races, to try and get it through their obviously thick heads that that sort of thing will just not be tolerated in F1 or any motorsport nowadays. I really feel sorry for Massa :sad:

And Ferrari only get a U$100k fine and were also referred to the WMSC and to appear on September 12, with regards to what happened in yesterdays race. Thats not going to do anything, that sort of money is the sort of money they'd lose down the back of the sofa and not even flinch about it so to speak!!

Ferrari cant win without cheating in some way or another, and it gets right on my t*ts

As a HUGE FAN of F1, I think Ferrari are going to ruin it again for everybody in F1, which is a shame and I think they should GTFO :ragin:

[Gismo]

what a laugh you guys are giving me, so let me see what your all trying to say is ferrari cheated in sundays grand prix mmmm dont you all think that this goes on in every team in f1??????Of course we are not as naive as to think it doesn't go on, but, today's example was so obvious and that is my main gripe, Alonso simply wasn't good enough on the day and shouldn't have expected anyone to move over.
Let's remember who pays the way for a lot of the races, us, the fans who turn up to pay at the gate and pay to see it on TV, that does not sit well with me

[The Dogfather]

what a laugh you guys are giving me, so let me see what your all trying to say is ferrari cheated in sundays grand prix mmmm dont you all think that this goes on in every team in f1??????

Of course it happens in other teams, mind you I can't think of any this season. but Ferrari make a habit of it. To do it so blatantly basically they're actually asking for action to be taken.

Lets just hope both drivers are stripped on their points from the race.

F1 doesn't need Ferrari anymore.

[Wul]

zzzzzzz did someone mention F1? ;)

A good take on F1 HERE (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/can-schumacher-restore-f1's-glory-days-of-utter-tedium?-200907311948/) :p

[minimad]

Of course it happens in other teams, mind you I can't think of any this season. but Ferrari make a habit of it. To do it so blatantly basically they're actually asking for action to be taken.

Lets just hope both drivers are stripped on their points from the race.

F1 doesn't need Ferrari anymore.oh what a great idea???LETS TAKE AWAY THE FILLET STEAK AND MAKE DO WITH THE MINCE!ferrari is f1 always has been always will be

[zimbo]

...ferrari is f1 always has been always will be

Yeah and its about time that changed :yes nod: ferrari think they are all high and mighty and that everyone should bow down to them :moonie:, I think its bout time they got put in there place, F1 and motorsport DO NOT REVOLVE around them.

[The Dogfather]

oh what a great idea???LETS TAKE AWAY THE FILLET STEAK AND MAKE DO WITH THE MINCE!ferrari is f1 always has been always will be

Personally, I find fillet steak a bit bland, no flavour.

[Stewart]

As I've said not a big F1 Fan. But when the best driver and car on the day pulls in to let a driver that does not deserve first place win then what is the point.

Inferior driver wins and F1 is the looser.
So to reflect do people want Ferrari to win with a selected driver over the best driver and car.

[minimad]

Yeah and its about time that changed :yes nod: ferrari think they are all high and mighty and that everyone should bow down to them :moonie:, I think its bout time they got put in there place, F1 and motorsport DO NOT REVOLVE around them.ferrari are in there place at the very top,motorsport does revolve round them ask wee bernie lol!!!!

[minimad]

Personally, I find fillet steak a bit bland, no flavour.
yes but just add some RED sauce and youve got a winner lol!!FORZA FERRARI

[Craig]

yes but just add some RED sauce and youve got a winner lol!!FORZA FERRARI

You can take the boy out if Italy but you can't take Italy out of the boy !! ;)

you need to take your red coloured glasses of Tony, they are clouding your judgement and sense of fair play. :lol:

massa should go to a team that will let him "race" ;)

[The Dogfather]

Quite a few papers are running the story that the Ferrari drivers will be stripped of their points and the victory awarded to Vettel.

FORZA FERRARI! Lol

[minimad]

Quite a few papers are running the story that the Ferrari drivers will be stripped of their points and the victory awarded to Vettel.

FORZA FERRARI! Lol cant see that happening to be honest!!

[The Dogfather]

Why not they broke the rules?

[minimad]

You can take the boy out if Italy but you can't take Italy out of the boy !! ;)

you need to take your red coloured glasses of Tony, they are clouding your judgement and sense of fair play. :lol:

massa should go to a team that will let him "race" ;)hehehehaha good one didnt realise we all had to support the one team on here.lol lol

[minimad]

Why not they broke the rules?
innocent untl proven guilty

[The Dogfather]

They've already been proven guilty by the stewards and have decided not to appeal.....

[Stewart]

I’d not drop there points, but award the right points to the right driver. They might have done it wrong but they were worth the one-two result.

Thing is I bet they would be the first to throw a hissy fit if it was done to them.

[Crombers]

Ferrari are a disgrace to the sport and Alonso isn't as good as he thinks he is.

He was out-performed by Hamilton at Mclaren and cried foul, and today he was out-performed by Massa and cried foul, the difference being Mclaren stood up to the little prima donna.

He does however speak highly of you ............. :thumbs up:

[Crombers]

Tottally Agree, 8 out of 10 fails in F1 contain elements of Alonso.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember he's a double world champion :idunno:

[Crombers]

F1 doesn't need Ferrari anymore.

Mmmmmmmmm lets see now ..................... F1 without Ferrari .................... nope still can't see it

[Crombers]

Not a lotta folk on here like Ferrari me thinks :rolleyes:

Maybe wear the Prancing Horse T-shirt on the next NMS run me thinks :hand:

FF :thumbs up:

[coopert21ceb]

As an avid Ferrari fan I am sick at the outcome yesterday. Massa's face at the post race interview said it all. Ferrari management should be ashamed of themselves. Massa should have had the top spot. Clear orders given. Not so sure that Alonso should be punished as it was not really the drivers fault. Management should be kicked in the arse! Fantastic they got a 1, 2 but it was not the happy win I wanted. Feel sorry for Massa.

[Crombers]

As an avid Ferrari fan I am sick at the outcome yesterday. Massa's face at the post race interview said it all. Ferrari management should be ashamed of themselves. Massa should have had the top spot. Clear orders given. Not so sure that Alonso should be punished as it was not really the drivers fault. Management should be kicked in the arse! Fantastic they got a 1, 2 but it was not the happy win I wanted. Feel sorry for Massa.

Ok take your points on board (another Ferrari fan :thumbs up:)

Lets look at the what if's then. Ferrari decide not to intervene & Alonso snuggles up the @rse of Massa, who by now does not have the pace. Vettel then does like wise behind Alonso. Now what have we got the potentail for here ...................... mistakes, BIG mistakes that could jepordise the 1-2 finish that Ferrari SO badly needed.
The way I see it is that Ferrari BADLY needed the points & decided (Massa's choice btw :rolleyes:) to let the faster guy take the lead in order to maximise the chances of finishing 1st (as a team) & hope to secure the 2nd as well.

Job done ................................. next :yes nod:

(Interesting points from DC yesterday ............... back in the early days, if a driver was struggling he would sometimes take his team mates car to see if he could go faster :thumbs up:)

[The Dogfather]

Ok take your points on board (another Ferrari fan :thumbs up:)

Lets look at the what if's then. Ferrari decide not to intervene & Alonso snuggles up the @rse of Massa, who by now does not have the pace. Vettel then does like wise behind Alonso. Now what have we got the potentail for here ...................... mistakes, BIG mistakes that could jepordise the 1-2 finish that Ferrari SO badly needed.
The way I see it is that Ferrari BADLY needed the points & decided (Massa's choice btw :rolleyes:) to let the faster guy take the lead in order to maximise the chances of finishing 1st (as a team) & hope to secure the 2nd as well.

Job done ................................. next :yes nod:

(Interesting points from DC yesterday ............... back in the early days, if a driver was struggling he would sometimes take his team mates car to see if he could go faster :thumbs up:)

Mistakes? You mean competitive racing don't you, god forbid that should happen between Ferraris.

When was the last time two red cars raced each other like Senna and Prost, like Alonso and Hamilton, like Button and Barricello etc.

Ferrari are wrong for F1 IMO. I want to see racing between drivers, especially when they have equal machinery not gifting someone the lead.

[minimad]

Ok take your points on board (another Ferrari fan :thumbs up:)

Lets look at the what if's then. Ferrari decide not to intervene & Alonso snuggles up the @rse of Massa, who by now does not have the pace. Vettel then does like wise behind Alonso. Now what have we got the potentail for here ...................... mistakes, BIG mistakes that could jepordise the 1-2 finish that Ferrari SO badly needed.
The way I see it is that Ferrari BADLY needed the points & decided (Massa's choice btw :rolleyes:) to let the faster guy take the lead in order to maximise the chances of finishing 1st (as a team) & hope to secure the 2nd as well.

Job done ................................. next :yes nod:

(Interesting points from DC yesterday ............... back in the early days, if a driver was struggling he would sometimes take his team mates car to see if he could go faster :thumbs up:)wey hey great to hear from a like minded ferrarista i think you hit that nail right on the head.as for calling ferrari cheats is beyond me when only a couple of seasons back the silver ferrari got a slap on the wrist for trying to spy on ferrari and never got disqualified from f1 so how on earth you can expect ferrari to be booted out,problem with formula one is that everyone is out to beat ferrari.......not an easy job when your dealing with the best!!....

[minimad]

Not a lotta folk on here like Ferrari me thinks :rolleyes:

Maybe wear the Prancing Horse T-shirt on the next NMS run me thinks :hand:

FF :thumbs up:
here here crombers good man i'll give you a loan of my 20ft flag you can fly it from your car ariel lol lol

[Scottie]

Did you hear the radio communications made to Massa when they advised that Alonso was faster ...... the guy making the call ended by saying sorry to Massa kinda sums it all don't you think even Ferrari knew what they were asking was not fair to Massa never mind anything else the point is Massa was in the lead Alonso should have raced and driven to try pass massa I thought that was the whole point to racing.

[The Dogfather]

wey hey great to hear from a like minded ferrarista i think you hit that nail right on the head.as for calling ferrari cheats is beyond me when only a couple of seasons back the silver ferrari got a slap on the wrist for trying to spy on ferrari and never got disqualified from f1 so how on earth you can expect ferrari to be booted out,problem with formula one is that everyone is out to beat ferrari.......not an easy job when your dealing with the best!!....

Actually, Mclaren were booted out of the constructors championship, they received a massive fine $100m and had to have their car inspected to prove that it had no Ferrari intellectual property on it. I'm very surprised how little you know about F1 for a Ferrari fan.

Their drivers were only allowed to compete because they were leading the championship, during that season there was a number of debatable rulings that meant that a Ferrari driver ended up winning the drivers championship. I still think Hamilton strange gearbox problem in the final race was very suspect.

[stoney]

i have to side with Paul on this one the red team did wrong face it they should no have told massa to move over and let the twat thro but they did

"alonso is faster then you DO U UNDERSTAND?" and then gos on to say sorry to massa

so what if alsonso is faster let him pass as any other racer on the track would do

i just hope they get striped of the race win !!!! as it was unfair and broke the rules !

[Delboy]

Very poor show by Ferrari. They cheated not only by breaking the rules but also by spoiling the racing for all the spectators. A $100k fine is nothing, they should have been given grid penalties for the next race - that would have hurt them more.

[N16SHP]

I remember back when Mika Hakkenen overtook DC back in the day, and just remember thinking, that's the worst decision i've ever seen. Drivers should be allowed to race, and when management interveens, its stopping the drivers do that. Having said that, we have absolutely no idea what the contracts say, and that may have a huge baring on it too.

Good point raised Paul about McLaren being fined properly. The FIA has always been biased towards Ferrari as they know without them in the sport, it just wouldn't be the same, so last thing they want to do is get rid of them. I'm not a fan of Ferrari, but I have to say without the two red cars, it would just be boring!

[Mini Ecosse]

Very poor show by Ferrari. They cheated not only by breaking the rules but also by spoiling the racing for all the spectators. A $100k fine is nothing, they should have been given grid penalties for the next race - that would have hurt them more.

Thank goodness I did not fork out my hard earned pennies to attend this GP. I would have felt robbed. What about you Delboy?

[minimad]

Actually, Mclaren were booted out of the constructors championship, they received a massive fine $100m and had to have their car inspected to prove that it had no Ferrari intellectual property on it. I'm very surprised how little you know about F1 for a Ferrari fan.

Their drivers were only allowed to compete because they were leading the championship, during that season there was a number of debatable rulings that meant that a Ferrari driver ended up winning the drivers championship. I still think Hamilton strange gearbox problem in the final race was very suspect.
so how did you feel about that then????????????

[minimad]

Actually, Mclaren were booted out of the constructors championship, they received a massive fine $100m and had to have their car inspected to prove that it had no Ferrari intellectual property on it. I'm very surprised how little you know about F1 for a Ferrari fan.

Their drivers were only allowed to compete because they were leading the championship, during that season there was a number of debatable rulings that meant that a Ferrari driver ended up winning the drivers championship. I still think Hamilton strange gearbox problem in the final race was very suspect.

oh i dont need to know much about f1 but thanks for your concern!!

[The Dogfather]

so how did you feel about that then????????????

Disappointed for Hamilton and Alonso, but if the team cheated they should be punished.

[The Dogfather]

oh i dont need to know much about f1 but thanks for your concern!!

So being a Ferrari fan is like supporting Man United at football then, I wasn't concerned I was just highlighting your lack of knowledge.

[Craig]

Can you imagine if you had put a bet on for massa to win with alonso 2nd... I think I would be livid and want Ferrari to pay out what the bookie would have as it is their cheating that caused the loss of winnings ;)

[The Dogfather]

Personally, I feel sorry for Massa, its the end of his career as a potential No.1 driver for any of the top teams

[minimad]

So being a Ferrari fan is like supporting Man United at football then, I wasn't concerned I was just highlighting your lack of knowledge.
how can you compare man utd with ferrari two different sports last time i checked, oh thats right you cant compare ferrari to another racing team of the same calibre
because there is no comparison!!!lol

[minimad]

Personally, I feel sorry for Massa, its the end of his career as a potential No.1 driver for any of the top teams
eh hes in the top team!!

[minimad]

Actually, Mclaren were booted out of the constructors championship, they received a massive fine $100m and had to have their car inspected to prove that it had no Ferrari intellectual property on it. I'm very surprised how little you know about F1 for a Ferrari fan.

Their drivers were only allowed to compete because they were leading the championship, during that season there was a number of debatable rulings that meant that a Ferrari driver ended up winning the drivers championship. I still think Hamilton strange gearbox problem in the final race was very suspect.the drivers were allowed to compete because they were leading the championship whats that all about then they should have been thrown out of f1 for this and werent!!now your claiming sabotage cmon a bit far fetched dont you think lol

[The Dogfather]

how can you compare man utd with ferrari two different sports last time i checked

I wasn't, I was comparing the supporters, from my experience a large number of people who know very little about football claim to be Man U fans.


eh hes in the top team!!

Dispute the top team comment, but for arguments sake we'll ignore it. Massa is not allowed to race for the championship in a Ferrari, so effectively his career is over as far as being a world champion is concerned.


the drivers were allowed to compete because they were leading the championship whats that all about then they should have been thrown out of f1 for this and werent!!now your claiming sabotage cmon a bit far fetched dont you think lol

The official reason was drivers weren't guilty of spying the team was hence why action was only taken against the team, but most people believe the real reason the drivers got off was that it would have effectively ended a large percentage of the audience interest in the sport. This would have damaged attendance at races and advertising revenue.

I wasn't claiming sabotage at all, I just said it was suspect, maybe even faked.

[N16SHP]

It all boils down to this, Rule 39 point no one cares states that there is to be no team orders in F1. Ferrari's management didn't have the balls to tell Massa to pull over, so they got Rob Smedly to do it for them. Therefore team orders was used, which also means they broke the rules. Was the fine fair? Probably had it been more than a little bit of pocket change. Should the drivers be thrown out of the race? Probably not considering it was the "teams" decision, much like the McLaren incident. Does team orders and rule breaking go on in F1...of course, it goes on in every sport. Tennis for example, you are not allowed to coach from the box, but do people do it? Yes, a little nose scratch here, a little tip of the hat there...it happens, its just that Ferrari were so obvious in doing it, we all cried CHEATS!

Oh look, they are just arriving in Hurgary...maybe there will be a race this time!:argh::argh::argh:

[Delboy]

Thank goodness I did not fork out my hard earned pennies to attend this GP. I would have felt robbed. What about you Delboy?

Yes, totally agree Stephen - I would've been mad if I'd been there.

[zimbo]

oh thats right you cant compare ferrari to another racing team of the same calibre because there is no comparison!!!lol

Exactly because Ferrari are crap and the only way they can get anywhere is by cheating, which other teams aren't guilty of.


eh hes in the top team!!

Ehhh NO hes not, its actually McLaren thats the top team in the Constructors and Drivers Championships so far, there drivers are 1 & 2 so far, and the nearest Ferrari driver is ummmm in 5th and how did he suddenly get there, oh yeah bye cheating (but hes still fifth!) and McLaren(1st) are nearly 100 points ahead of ferrari(3rd) in the Constructors Championship, so where you get the idea that Alonso is in the top team, I'll never know :rolleyes:, Ferrari are **** and they know it, so they can only bet places by cheating.

3rd is not top in my book. :idunno:

[minimad]

Exactly because Ferrari are crap and the only way they can get anywhere is by cheating, which other teams aren't guilty of.



Ehhh NO hes not, its actually McLaren thats the top team in the Constructors and Drivers Championships so far, there drivers are 1 & 2 so far, and the nearest Ferrari driver is ummmm in 5th and how did he suddenly get there, oh yeah bye cheating (but hes still fifth!) and McLaren(1st) are nearly 100 points ahead of ferrari(3rd) in the Constructors Championship, so where you get the idea that Alonso is in the top team, I'll never know :rolleyes:, Ferrari are **** and they know it, so they can only bet places by cheating.

3rd is not top in my book. :idunno:no one mentioned alonso we were talking about massa doh.regarding "the best" i meant ferrari,i mean there that **** mclaren tried to copy them a few seasons back and got there arse felt for it typical statement from a SILVER FERRARI FAN LOLOLOLOL!!

[minimad]

no one mentioned alonso we were talking about massa doh.regarding "the best" i meant ferrari,i mean there that **** mclaren tried to copy them a few seasons back and got there arse felt for it typical statement from a silver ferrari fan lolololol!!
look at your history man and tell me there not top?? Forza scuderia ferrari!!

[Gismo]

Even more disgusting was the result of the enquiry published today, no further action to be taken :ragin:
Well, i for one will never knowingly part with my hard earned to help Ferrari make a single dime, feckin disgrace to real racing

[Crombers]

Even more disgusting was the result of the enquiry published today, no further action to be taken :ragin:
Well, i for one will never knowingly part with my hard earned to help Ferrari make a single dime, feckin disgrace to real racing

Ho hum :rolleyes:

[zimbo]

Even more disgusting was the result of the enquiry published today, no further action to be taken :ragin:
Well, i for one will never knowingly part with my hard earned to help Ferrari make a single dime, feckin disgrace to real racing

So they are getting off with it AGAIN!! ...theres a shock :argh: :frown:

I think the F in F1 stands for Ferrari1 and not Formula1, thats the way Im seeing it anyway.:idunno:

[minimad]

So they are getting off with it AGAIN!! ...theres a shock :argh: :frown:

I think the F in F1 stands for Ferrari1 and not Formula1, thats the way Im seeing it anyway.:idunno:
jings crivens i think the boys got it !!lol lol

[C.Noble]

It seems to me that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the way fans perceive F1 teams are run and why there are 2 cars in a team. Principly, there are two to double the exposure of the brand, but traditionally, F1 teams have always tried to field at least 2 cars, often more, to increase there chances of decent results, then as the season progresses, if one driver begins to extend a lead over the other, the lagging team mate helps the leading one to win the championship for the team, this is not a new thing, even back in the days before commercialism of the sport and it was still being run with cars with spoked wheels and 'gentleman' drivers with leather helmets... These guys would even commandeer there team mates cars if their one failed mid race to remain in the hunt for championship!

Formula 1 has always been a team sport, and no team is ever going to be happy allowing there drivers to race each other unnecessarily, the risks are to great when it goes wrong... Red bull, the team and it's drivers, may yet pay dearly for their little squabble over the same peice of Tarmac earlier this year... And look how much they were ridiculed at the time for it!

I totally agree with DC, this is a team sport, if a driver doesn't like that arrangement, then go and design, build, develop, prepare and repair your own chassis, gearbox, engine, aero package, tyres, brakes, etc, etc.

I can understand that F1 needs to listen to the fans too though, but it seems to me that the fans either need to wake up and smell the coffee and accept that teams are always going to sacrifice spectacle for results everytime or remove the issue of team orders once and for all... Ban second cars and make all teams 'one car teams', I don't like the idea one little bit, but it would definitly stop any accusation of teamorders!

As for Ferrari getting alot their own way, I am not a ferrari fan, but I know that Ferrari and F1 are inextricably linked in more ways than one, obviously they are the longest surviving team in the championship, but they are by far F1's most globally recognised brand in it's portfolio.... Honestly, when was the last time you heard someone say "if I win the euro millions, I am going to go straight out and buy myself a Renault!" or regardless of how much you might say you don't want a Ferrari, if someone came up to you and offered a free Ferrari or all the red bull you could consume for the rest of your life, you ain't gonna be walking away from the deal with the high caffine drink are you! Similarly, Ferrari would sell sh1t load less cars if it were to walk from F1... not to mention the backlash from the Italian car buying public that would devastate FIAT.

That said, Ferrari is a shadow of it's former self, and I hate to point out, will not be "the" top team again for a couple of seasons. I was a fan of the Schumacher/Brawn partnership and I think they did a great job of getting the team to work around them and the ethos of that team was to win at all costs... Not to win in the most spectator friendly way... These guys, and most racers in general, don't give a stuff about spectators anyway, and although we all know it's the fans that ultimatly pay for the yaughts and fancy cars the drivers prance around in, most of the real die hard racers would still go racing if no bugger was watching at all!

Sorry. I really need to get rid of this insomnia... These bloody posts are getting bigger!!

[Gismo]

All very valid points and well put from a racers perspective.
Now, assume that i am a gambler and i had paid decent money for a particular result, along comes the instruction for Massa to move over live on the airwaves and bam, there goes my wager. Which is just one reason why i don't like to "know" race fixing goes on.
We, as fans expect true and honest racing, look at the controversy surrounding the Pakistan cricketers who cheated, i don't see much difference in this particular Ferrari episode.
So, as long as i continue to follow the sport and actually pay money to watch and purchase their goods i won't partake of any of their stalls at events.

Of course, if Mr Ferrari should be walking down Pensacola Boulevard handing our free Enzo's i'll snap his hand off :Whistle:

[euan]

I can see both points of view, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. According to the rules as they are today, Ferrari cheated. They get a 100K fine. Renault fixed a race, which in my mind is the same as team orders in so much as they affected the outcome of the race, and got a suspended sentence.

I think what rankles a lot of people is that McLaren, unproved that they cheated a few seasons ago, were fined £100M - where is the parity of punishment? We all know F1 is changing, it's getting more transparent and that helps, but teams need to acknowledge the fans are what funds their racing - they have to protect "the product".



Red bull, the team and it's drivers, may yet pay dearly for their little squabble over the same peice of Tarmac earlier this year... And look how much they were ridiculed at the time for it!


Well, there is a theory that actually it was their own doing. The accident was very similar to Vettels clown driving into Button at Spa. The theory is that due to the "illegal" flexing wings and floor the balance of the car when it's in traffic is compromised - so if you pull out from behind another car, the wing is part flexed on the side that is exposed and causes instability. The video from Spa shows this much clearer than the earlier incident, plus people were actually looking for it, so you never know.

[C.Noble]

...assume that i am a gambler and i had paid decent money for a particular result, along comes the instruction for Massa to move over live on the airwaves and bam, there goes my wager. Which is just one reason why i don't like to "know" race fixing goes on.
We, as fans expect true and honest racing, look at the controversy surrounding the Pakistan cricketers who cheated, i don't see much difference in this particular Ferrari episode...
:

I am not being patronising, but if you dont understand the sport, dont gamble money on the result and tayloring a sport to the needs of a gambler always leads to sleaze anyway, unlike sports like boxing, F1 doesnt need gambling revenue to survive, and long may that be true. I dont know anything about cricket, but it is my understanding that the matchfixing was blatant and purely for some crooked gamblers benefit, and what was done was akin to what Renault/Briotore did a couple of years ago when they got someone to crash to influence the result of a race instead of driving to influence the result.
Whith the Alonso/Massa thing, surely this is more like Rooney and Beckham rushing into the box in the last ten minutes of a world cup match, Beckham has beaten the defenders and keeper but at the last minute back passes to Rooney for a clear shot at goal as he knows Rooney is in with a shot at the Golden Boot and he isnt, the goal is still a goal, the team still win, and the team still help an individual on their challenge... would anyone cry fix and demand Rooney and Beckham get red cards... assuming of course the goal was not scored against Scotland... then they would deserve lifetime bans and public flogging!!!



... According to the rules as they are today, Ferrari cheated. ...


But that is my point, the law in this case is an ass. The rule "no team orders allowed" is totally uninforcable and completely out of touch with the sport... to anyone in the sport it is as ludicris as saying that the manager of a football team should not be allowed to make a substitution as it influences the result of a match... of course it does, thats why there are TWO cars!

The rule either needs to be removed completely and the fans then understand that it is going to happen and if they dont like it they can vote with their feet, or ban the second car, removing all team orders and leaving you with blatant cheating between competeing teams to influence results.



...Well, there is a theory that actually it was their own doing. The accident was very similar to Vettels clown driving into Button at Spa. The theory is that due to the "illegal" flexing wings and floor the balance of the car when it's in traffic is compromised - so if you pull out from behind another car, the wing is part flexed on the side that is exposed and causes instability. The video from Spa shows this much clearer than the earlier incident, plus people were actually looking for it, so you never know.


Which is my other point, the pace of modern F1 is such that the cars are now more upside down aircraft than racing cars, with around 90% of the grip available on a corner coming from aero generated downforce. As teams have to push the limits just to keep pace, let alone pull ahaed, the cars are becoming more and more nervous. Think about aircraft, any pilot will tell you that low level flying is harder than high altitude stuff, and the closer to the ground you go the more difficult is gets as the air between the wings and ground gets squeezed and bounces around unpredictably, these guys who race old WWII fighters in Arizona say that the buzz from trying to control their craft at less than 50 feet is mega... messrs Newey and Brawn have to engineer a "plane" that is predictable at 25mm off the deck!
Flight control regulations keep aircraft miles apart because of turbulance, even tight formation stunt aircraft keep tens of meters apart to prevent the lift that keeps their craft up from getting 'switched off' as the airflow is disrupted... again in F1, these 'planes' are expected to follow in the wake of the car in front and still behave predictably.

This is why overtaking is relatively rare in F1 these days, and why teams will do all possiblke to avoid their two championship hopes, not to mention two horrendously expensive upside down aircraft from tangling with each other.

[Gismo]

I am not being patronising, but if you dont understand the sport, dont gamble money on the result and tayloring a sport to the needs of a gambler always leads to sleaze anyway, unlike sports like boxing, F1 doesnt need gambling revenue to survive, and long may that be true. I dont know anything about cricket, but it is my understanding that the matchfixing was blatant and purely for some crooked gamblers benefit, and what was done was akin to what Renault/Briotore did a couple of years ago when they got someone to crash to influence the result of a race instead of driving to influence the result.I fully understand the sport and the reasoning for 2 cars and for one of them being better than the other then let them through etc, it's the rules of the sport that NO team orders are allowed, hence my greetin in this thread, if, however, the rule was abolished then i would accept it, so i'm sorry, your view is lost to me because of the actual rules in place at this time.