Has MINI hit Middle Age before its time? Discuss.....

[ELFMAN]

With the lack of a totally performance-focussed version (arguing that the JCW isn't quite in the same mould as, say, the outgoing Renault Megane R26 R) and with the most expensive MINI ever, the JCW Championship 50 (which salutes RACING heritage remember), having no 'mechanical/performance edge' over the standard JCW, only a ton of options which will actually make it heavier and slower? AND it doesn't even get Recaros as standard! :frown: More Ker-ching than Vroom Vroom..... it's a lovely car, but isn't it a bit contradictory?

With the coming of the Countryman 'Soft Roader', has MINI finally succumbed to the comfy confines of Middle-Age Mainstream Motoring, or will MINI's proposed WRC involvement resurrect the serious performance image which we haven't really seen since the GP hit the streets? Where's the 'RS 56' Lightweight road-racer some of us would like to see?

Is the "MINI Magic" we all know and love getting diluted in BMW's headlong chase of Market Share? Is MINI's success actually killing what made it great? I think we should be told. :thumbs up: Or is it too late already? :sad::smilewinkgrin:

[AndyP & Lenore]

Lenore and I were discussing this very subject last night. MINI really needs to bring out a hardened stripped down GP version of the R56. There's surely a market for them - look at the way the GP's flew out the door back in the day.

I suspect you're right, I think they have developed a bit of "TV on the comfy couch eating a Tesco's TV dinner", although I don't think MINI would agree. I think they think the likes of the Camden, MINI 50, etc., etc., keep the brand "cool". It does, I suppose, but they are both missed opportunities. One which I suspect MINI would not have missed 5 years ago.

Lenore said the other day... "I have a hankering for a new MINI." The trouble is, there is NOTHING new in the MINI market since we bought our R56, that interests us. What we want is a R56 version of the GP, stripped down, but preferably with Xenons and Air Con and with an auto box. Doesn't exist.

So, what's required - a new man at the top to take the brand in a new direction? Trouble is, I suspect MINI is run by a committee and if so, I'm afraid we're all doomed.

A.

[ELFMAN]

I'm eagerly awaiting the MINI "Old Kent Road" (complete with 'Pearly King' interior) and the "King's Cross" which drops its top at the touch of a button..... I bet the great John Cooper's turning in his grave.

[The Dogfather]

I can see that the WRC involvement will spawn a more focused performance 4wd variant, otherwise why do it?

Having driven a 4wd car (my TT) and the JCW I can see that if they turn the power up they'd need to put power to the rear wheels (as well). Torque steer is an issue in my lowly Cooper S, and it ruins the balance of the car to a certain extent when compared to the TT.

If we are talking about brand positioning I think MINI need to innovate, maybe the 3 cylinder engines will do that.

[N16SHP]

I read a review about the countryman along the lines of what your saying Elfman, and totally agree with you! I'd love to see an r26 megane version of the Mini. I think what you say about the WC30 being a bit of a bum job is correct, but if we had the money, I bet we'd all buy it just because of what it is!

[zimbo]

Where's the 'RS 56' Lightweight road-racer some of us would like to see?
:smilewinkgrin:

Euan (Ewan?:rolleyes:) I too am waiting in the hope that MINI will do an R56 version of the old GP, something like an R56 M or something with a catchy name coz the GP name wouldn't work again I don't think. Or your choice sounds really nice RS 56, has a ring to it... :lol:


MINI really needs to bring out a hardened stripped down GP version of the R56. There's surely a market for them - look at the way the GP's flew out the door back in the day.

What we want is a R56 version of the GP, stripped down, but preferably with Xenons

A.

Totally agree with all of the above Andy and you lady racer Lenore... :D

I just dont think MINI really bother listening to their loyal and regular customers who are the people who have and will always try to come back again and again for minis, I would think if there was a WORLD WIDE POLL on whether or not they should do a version of the discussed vehicle, they would be overwhelmed with the response and requests for such a vehicle...

I know I would DEFINATELY be trying to get one (assuming I ever find another job that is... :rolleyes::D) My name will certainly be on that list :yes nod:

[ELFMAN]

I think what you say about the WC30 being a bit of a bum job is correct, but if we had the money, I bet we'd all buy it just because of what it is!

Well, I DO like the WC50 - it looks the business, and goes well too - but I have to be honest and say I wouldn't buy one even if I had that sort of money. I just can't see past the price and what you get for it. I know what I could do with a basic R56 JCW, some weight-saving measures and about £6K for some appropriate upgrades, and it kind of sticks in my throat that BMW/MINI couldn't. If you check mags like EVO, the MINI's been knocked off the top spot for quite a while now, and while it still gets an honourable mention, other manufacturers have pinched the 'Hot Hatch' crown. Shame that.

Zimbo - it's Euan. Ta!

[zimbo]

...other manufacturers have pinched the 'Hot Hatch' crown. Shame that.

Zimbo - it's Euan. Ta!

I thought it was Euan (just making sure...) :thumbs up:

Yes the Title of best 'Hot Hatch' has apparently now gone to the new FOCUS RS500, which has already sold out a long time ago, before its even been launched...

Come on MINI get your finger out!! :ragin:

[Mon the fish]

Totally agree with the comments regarding the 'RS56 GP WRC Evo GTi Type-Ecosse' - there should be a stripped-out, hardcore version.

I think they missed a trick with the GP, in that it wasn't hardcore/different enough. Sure, the wing and skirts are probably more aerodynamic, but that only works above 80mph, and will it make that much difference? The performance is almost identical to my JCW 210, because mechanically it's identical (barring the intercooler).

So doing a 'GP' again isn't enough in my opinion - I want less tacky styling, more useful parts. I can see why they target the 'Notting Hill' market with the Camden etc, but targeting the 'EVO magazine' market as well can't hurt sales. You could argue doing nothing is hurting sales; the reason I have never bought an R56 is that my R53 JCW is just that little bit more hardcore, and a GP wasn't different or better enough for my liking.

Offer me something better, and then I might put my hand in my pocket.

[RyanK]

I think they missed a trick with the GP, in that it wasn't hardcore/different enough.

+1, and i've got one! Seats are far too heavy etc

[Scottie]

I believe Mini should have done/do a hardcore version.

I am happy with Mini think they are doing a good job and the 4x4 soft off roader is a excellent idea, I think the new coupe and cabrio coming along will also be very nice. I think the 3 cylinder engine with plenty of power will prove to be ground breaking.

[N16SHP]

Well, I DO like the WC50 - it looks the business, and goes well too - but I have to be honest and say I wouldn't buy one even if I had that sort of money. I just can't see past the price and what you get for it. I know what I could do with a basic R56 JCW, some weight-saving measures and about £6K for some appropriate upgrades, and it kind of sticks in my throat that BMW/MINI couldn't. If you check mags like EVO, the MINI's been knocked off the top spot for quite a while now, and while it still gets an honourable mention, other manufacturers have pinched the 'Hot Hatch' crown. Shame that.

Again you are very right. I cannot see where the extra money is spent, but I suppose its just the appeal of owning such a limited edition car which is a shame, they definitely missed something big!

As for the RS500, I almost bought a Fiesta ST500, until I realised the Cooper S was WAAAAAAAAAAY better, but the only good thing about that car, and that BMW/Mini should take note, is that I nearly bought No. 1 of 500, and it cost the same as A) The rest of the ST500's and B) The rest of the standard Fiesta ST's as they admitted the only difference was some bonnet stripes and black alloys! The only thing going for No. 1 is that it would potencially keep its value slightly more being No. 1!

[ELFMAN]

I believe Mini should have done/do a hardcore version.

I am happy with Mini think they are doing a good job and the 4x4 soft off roader is a excellent idea, I think the new coupe and cabrio coming along will also be very nice. I think the 3 cylinder engine with plenty of power will prove to be ground breaking.

I don't think MINI are doing a bad job either Fiona, any company who's sustaining employment in Britain just now and producing what is still a quality item like the MINI gets my support. The Coupe looks interesting (even if the 'flat bunnet' roof looks like it was shoved on coming out of the pub at closing time) it's got some decent grunt and should go very well with its low centre of gravity etc, and the Cabrio looks neat. But the SoftCountrymanthing is there because they want to cover all the potential customer bases and is getting further and further away from anything to do with the MINI, visually, dynamically and historically. It's the MINI for folks who never 'got' the MINI when it came out. Should look good on the School Run though - which, let's face it, is where most of them will be deploying their 4WD... but that's another topic for another thread!

I just think they've missed a few opportunities to create a really serious 'Hot' version which brings the MINI right back to driving basics - which is where it always excelled anyway, and puts our car back on top of the performance ladder where it should be.

[ianking]

Couldnt agree more Mr Elf.
You have many wise words for one so young. :smilewinkgrin::cool::smilewinkgrin:

[euan]

They are missing a real "halo" product, the best, most impressive car you can get in the package - similar to what BMW do with the M cars for example. I guess the JCW 50 was aimed at that but didn't really deliver.

The thing is, by and large they are not bought by people seeking the ultimate performance like an RS500 is, they are bought by people who use them as they are a cool, solid little car that drives well.

[Delboy]

They are missing a real "halo" product, the best, most impressive car you can get in the package - similar to what BMW do with the M cars for example. I guess the JCW 50 was aimed at that but didn't really deliver.

The thing is, by and large they are not bought by people seeking the ultimate performance like an RS500 is, they are bought by people who use them as they are a cool, solid little car that drives well.

I think the JCW versions of the Mini are the "halo" product! They are the most expensive, most powerful and least common in the Mini fleet.

I'm not sure why BMW Mini would want to launch a hard-core model - they won't make any money out of such a limited edition model and, let's face it, they sell plenty Minis at the moment anyway.

I also don't think you can compare the Focus RS500 or Megane R with the Mini - they are not in the same size class of car. The Mini is in the small car class and I don't think there are any hard-core cars in that class - are there? I certainly can't think of any more hard-core than an R56 JCW.

[ELFMAN]

Couldnt agree more Mr Elf.
You have many wise words for one so young. :smilewinkgrin::cool::smilewinkgrin:

Ian, if you get any more ironic, you'll get rusty! I'll get the Hammerite and a brush, just in case.

Good points from Euan (what else do you expect from such a great name?) and Delboy. Interesting to hear what everyone thinks though - wonder if anyone from MINI reads these forums? If so, I've Copyrighted the 'RS 56' name.

[N16SHP]

I think the JCW versions of the Mini are the "halo" product! They are the most expensive, most powerful and least common in the Mini fleet.

I'm not sure why BMW Mini would want to launch a hard-core model - they won't make any money out of such a limited edition model and, let's face it, they sell plenty Minis at the moment anyway.

I also don't think you can compare the Focus RS500 or Megane R with the Mini - they are not in the same size class of car. The Mini is in the small car class and I don't think there are any hard-core cars in that class - are there? I certainly can't think of any more hard-core than an R56 JCW.

I think the Clio Cup is about as close are you are going to get in the small car class, yet its no more hardcore than the JCW!

[euan]

I think the JCW versions of the Mini are the "halo" product! They are the most expensive, most powerful and least common in the Mini fleet.

I'm not sure why BMW Mini would want to launch a hard-core model - they won't make any money out of such a limited edition model and, let's face it, they sell plenty Minis at the moment anyway.

I also don't think you can compare the Focus RS500 or Megane R with the Mini - they are not in the same size class of car. The Mini is in the small car class and I don't think there are any hard-core cars in that class - are there? I certainly can't think of any more hard-core than an R56 JCW.

I agree - it's meant to be the halo product but Mini have sold the JCW versions with the same power output (more or less) since day one and the world has moved on. The point with the RS500 etc is while they are a different class the aim is the same - a purer, stripped performance version and so I guess is more of a GP than a JCW, and in that case, where is the GP for the R56?

[euan]

I think the Clio Cup is about as close are you are going to get in the small car class, yet its no more hardcore than the JCW!

But the point of a Mini has always been it's giant killing ability, hence why when it first came out again it whipped everything in site, including Golf GTis, Clios, etc. Evo picked it over 100K+ supercars in a car of the year as well.

[N16SHP]

But the point of a Mini has always been it's giant killing ability, hence why when it first came out again it whipped everything in site, including Golf GTis, Clios, etc. Evo picked it over 100K+ supercars in a car of the year as well.

I think case and point that sums up what you are saying, especially about the power and not being totally stripped out etc, is the new Polo GTI. A 1.4 that can outrun the Cooper S, not Works, the S and has that giant killing ability like the Mini used to have. I think Mini DO need to pull there finger out and see what they can really get from the 1.6. Out of curiousity, anyone know what figures you'd be looking at, if you took the S or JCW and gave it a 'helping hand'?

[euan]

I think case and point that sums up what you are saying, especially about the power and not being totally stripped out etc, is the new Polo GTI.

178BHP from a 1.4!!!! Turbo and supercharger, with a 7 speed DSG - that's unbelievable. Mind you, you would expect that from a car costing 18K! Almost as fast as the Golf GTi.

[Bazthemod]

But the SoftCountrymanthing is there because they want to cover all the potential customer bases and is getting further and further away from anything to do with the MINI, visually, dynamically and historically. It's the MINI for folks who never 'got' the MINI when it came out. Should look good on the School Run though - which, let's face it, is where most of them will be deploying their 4WD... but that's another topic for another thread!


Granted the school run brigade will latch on to this! But it's also for people like my Mum who, due to her job, had to get a bigger car. She misses her Mini loads and can't wait to test drive the Countryman.

Also how many times have we seen people on here sell their Mini cause they need more space? Now they can move up within the Mini group! Genius on BMW/MINIs part.

The Coupe is my next car, saw it at Frankfurt and fell in love. Yeah the roof looks bit weird but that's why I love it!

Also according to the guy on the stand don't expect the Coupe to be a standard JCW.

Everything evolves and things are always going to change from the original... be thankful BMW took over! Some of the Rover designs for the next gen MINI were shocking!

[The Dogfather]

Out of curiousity, anyone know what figures you'd be looking at, if you took the S or JCW and gave it a 'helping hand'?

Evolve has just dyno'd a JCW at 273bhp and 305 lb/ft just from a remap, the standard car was already putting out 238. I guess there's a big difference between OEM claimed and actual power.

[N16SHP]

178BHP from a 1.4!!!! Turbo and supercharger, with a 7 speed DSG - that's unbelievable. Mind you, you would expect that from a car costing 18K! Almost as fast as the Golf GTi.

Yep, couldn't be bothered looking up the exact figures but its pretty staggering!


Evolve has just dyno'd a JCW at 273bhp and 305 lb/ft just from a remap, the standard car was already putting out 238. I guess there's a big difference between OEM claimed and actual power.

...drools...sweeeeeeeet!

[ELFMAN]

Granted the school run brigade will latch on to this! But it's also for people like my Mum who, due to her job, had to get a bigger car. She misses her Mini loads and can't wait to test drive the Countryman.
Also how many times have we seen people on here sell their Mini cause they need more space? Now they can move up within the Mini group! Genius on BMW/MINIs part. Everything evolves and things are always going to change from the original... be thankful BMW took over! Some of the Rover designs for the next gen MINI were shocking!

We're getting slightly 'Off Topic' here I fear... BUT -

Rover designs shocking? What about the The MINI ACV 30 concept from 1997? Check out the basic shape! Check the big central speedo indside! OK, it was mid-engined and only had 2 seats, but you have to admit, the styling cues for the MINI are all in evidence. BMW knew it was on to a good thing, which is why they took over, not because they were they were the altruistic smart cookies and the British side was all useless. British organisation and finance WAS useless, and the infrastructure was woefully outdated and clunky, but there was a fair bit of Rover Engineering input into the new car, which has been conveniently forgotten under the tsunami of Teutonic cash and marketing. BMW provided the MEANS and organisation to get it done, but to give them ALL the credit is incorrect. MINI wouldn't have happened without BMW, but without the groundwork done by Rover, BMW wouldn't have had anything to take over. By the way, check the ACV 30 again - apart from the engine placement and a few styling alterations - 'new' Coupe, anyone? Just a thought. The concept's pretty close. Everything DOES evolve, but it pays to check what and where it evolves from.

I don't have an issue with your Mum or anyone else liking their MINI and needing a bigger car, and I don't dispute that BMW is very cleverly, as I said, covering all the bases... BUT my point is that when you bring out a chunky soft-roader (which I've heard will be built by Styer-Puch in Austria - so no new British jobs), albeit with a MINI badge, it moves so far away from the 'Raison D'etre' of the MINI (small, stylish, with excellent dynamics and performance) that to me there becomes a point where it isn't a MINI, it's another BMW with MINI styling cues and badging. Where does it stop? A 'JCW JCB' because the Road Engineer loved his MINI, but needed a vehicle with earth-moving capabilities? We know MINIs can make the Earth move, but there's a limit.

[Crombers]

Dont ya just love the Elfmans posts, I certainly enjoy the reads :yes nod:

A JCW JCB, ...................... utterly brilliant :laugh:

Elfman for Lifetime El Presidente :thumbs up:

[euan]

BMW, Merc and Audi are all at it at the moment - a car for everyone, regardless how niche it is. Merc R class for example - same internal space as an E class estate or the m class, just a different body. But BMW are the worst at it - X1 (woeful car and pigging ugly), 5 series GT (again, pigging ugly). They are doing the same with MINI.

Frankly, I'd quite like a JCB JCW :-)

[ianking]

Again Elfman all wise words.
As soon as I saw the MINI ACV 30 back in the day when it got taken out to drive the Monte Carlo I thought it looked amazing. Ive got pics of it in books at home. I wonder where it is locked away now as its not on display at Gaydon. Presume BMW have it away somewhere as Rovwer was owned by BMW at that time.

If my work got in some JCW JCBs then I would be getting my JCB site ticket.

[Bazthemod]

lol we can agree to disagree because I'v had enough debating for one month lol

However I'm sorry but, these are hideous! In my opinion of course.... i would have kept my classic rather than buying one of those!

The guy who designed the new MINI was BMW designer Frank Stephenson, he was heavily monitored by BMW - There was a documentary about it.

http://photos.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_615/car_photo_307606_7.jpg
http://imcdb.org/images/056/509.jpg

[ianking]

Bazz, the blue car you posted up. I have pics of that in a book somewhere. Im sure it said that Rover designed those cars with BMW but they never intended to make them. It was simply a decoy to destract people from the R50 designs that started in 1996.

here are some better pics of the ACV30.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i260/ianking82/acv30-2.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i260/ianking82/acv30-1.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i260/ianking82/acv30-3.jpg

[ianking]

Look at the interior of the ACV30 and there are so many styling cues taken over to the R50.

[ELFMAN]

lol we can agree to disagree because I'v had enough debating for one month lol. However I'm sorry but, these are hideous! In my opinion of course.... i would have kept my classic rather than buying one of those! The guy who designed the new MINI was BMW designer Frank Stephenson, he was heavily monitored by BMW - There was a documentary about it.]

Yes, I know my Mini/MINI history facts too. BMW's American Frank Stephenson, along with his team, DESIGNED the SHAPE, he didn't do the gubbins UNDER the shape, that was a combination of Rover and BMW (eg the BMW's 'Z-Axle' rear setup, which was pretty unusual in a small car but helped the MINI to handle better than the opposition at the time - so kudos to bee-em for that). But it's still a combined effort - not purely BMW.

I also don't remember anyone with a big stick at BMW lurking over Frank's team's shoulders when they were shaping the new car... Why get your design team involved in a project and then DICTATE to them what the design should be? Stephenson's since worked with/for Fiat, Ferrari, McLaren, Alfa Romeo etc etc - he's a 'Top Gun for Hire', and I don't believe he would work under, or put up with 'Heavy Monitoring' in the sense that you seem to be intimating. AND I don't care if there 'was a documentary about it'! :argh:

Like Ian has said, the ACV 30 etc were purely DESIGN STUDIES - exercises to try to find a new version of the Mini - and whether you like them or not isn't really the point. Even if they were 'decoys' to some extent, I defy anyone to say that there are no recognisable styling cues which were later to appear in the MINI. :cool: The cars you've illustrated aren't necessarily the 'destination', they're part of the journey and to put them in isolation in comparison with the finished MINI design is like showing us the ingredients for a cake and saying it's not a good cake. :hand:

Sorry about the debate, but Forums tend to bring that out in people. You don't work for BMW do you Baz? :smilewinkgrin:

[Sheilz]

We're getting slightly 'Off Topic' here I fear... BUT -

Rover designs shocking? What about the The MINI ACV 30 concept from 1997? Check out the basic shape! Check the big central speedo indside! OK, it was mid-engined and only had 2 seats, but you have to admit, the styling cues for the MINI are all in evidence. BMW knew it was on to a good thing, which is why they took over, not because they were they were the altruistic smart cookies and the British side was all useless. British organisation and finance WAS useless, and the infrastructure was woefully outdated and clunky, but there was a fair bit of Rover Engineering input into the new car, which has been conveniently forgotten under the tsunami of Teutonic cash and marketing. BMW provided the MEANS and organisation to get it done, but to give them ALL the credit is incorrect. MINI wouldn't have happened without BMW, but without the groundwork done by Rover, BMW wouldn't have had anything to take over. By the way, check the ACV 30 again - apart from the engine placement and a few styling alterations - 'new' Coupe, anyone? Just a thought. The concept's pretty close. Everything DOES evolve, but it pays to check what and where it evolves from.

I don't have an issue with your Mum or anyone else liking their MINI and needing a bigger car, and I don't dispute that BMW is very cleverly, as I said, covering all the bases... BUT my point is that when you bring out a chunky soft-roader (which I've heard will be built by Styer-Puch in Austria - so no new British jobs), albeit with a MINI badge, it moves so far away from the 'Raison D'etre' of the MINI (small, stylish, with excellent dynamics and performance) that to me there becomes a point where it isn't a MINI, it's another BMW with MINI styling cues and badging. Where does it stop? A 'JCW JCB' because the Road Engineer loved his MINI, but needed a vehicle with earth-moving capabilities? We know MINIs can make the Earth move, but there's a limit.




:clap::clap::clap:

Agree totally. Mini is very middle of the road. Have still to go 's' or 'jcw' in my mini career but get where you guys are coming from, there's no sense of 'what's next?' for you. Minis are brilliant cars but I think the very fact that they are favoured in ever increasing numbers by the 'blue rinse brigade' kind of says it all. Without some innovative engineering I think I could see it becoming a victim of its own success. For myself I would then have to question that if it is a middle aged car I want then why a mini when there are so many other equally good cars out there that are much better value for money.

[ELFMAN]

Thanks for getting us back on topic Sheilz!

[N16SHP]

For myself I would then have to question that if it is a middle aged car I want then why a mini when there are so many other equally good cars out there that are much better value for money.

Like a Corsa VXR :D :D :D ? ***shivers and almost vomits at the thought***

[ianking]

Off topic from me but an Arden Blue Corsa VXR is a pretty damn good car for the money. You can easy get a delivery mileage one for £14k, or much less if you take a year old one.

[N16SHP]

Off topic from me but an Arden Blue Corsa VXR is a pretty damn good car for the money. You can easy get a delivery mileage one for £14k, or much less if you take a year old one.

Yeah, they look alright, but when you drive them, compared to the Mini, they are awfully jelly like! Even thought they are quicker to 60 than an S, on a country road, they cannot keep up!

[ELFMAN]

I'd like to say that I didn't want to knock the MINI - I still think it's one of the best small cars out there - hell, I bought my 3rd one last March! It still looks great and goes well, and even if it has lost a bit of its 'Zing', it started so far ahead of the pack that it still holds its own and I'm proud to be part of the whole MINI scene.

The 'problem', or potential problem, is that cars which were, let's face it - crap - when MINI was born, have caught up. I'm sure the Corsa VXR is a cracking car, the Fiat 500 is a cute wee thing (and if you're a bloke, you get an Abarth so you can actually drive it without having your sexuality questioned) and cars like the Clio 200 Cup go just as well as the MINI and don't have as many 'practical drawbacks' while they're doing it (and you get proper Recaros for about £850 as an option). The new POLO GTI will be very interesting too.

The one trump card the MINI always had was superior Dynamics, Performance and Image, as time has gone on, MINI hasn't arguably advanced in these areas (some would argue that the R56 was a step back from those core values) - obviously it's harder for MINI to improve as it was such a great package to start with compared with it's perceived 'rivals'. It didn't actually have ANY proper rivals back in 2001. So it needs something really special to re-kindle that spark in the brand we know is still smouldering away in there. Maybe the Coupe will do something to help this, who knows? Certainly 'Special Editions' aren't the answer. Even Rover didn't start to do this until the original Mini was dying on its arse. This is slightly worrying and BMW have to be very careful that they don't lose the plot and throw out their baby with the bathwater. I suppose I just hate to think of something so special becoming 'ordinary' and a small 4x4........

[Scottie]

motoring file review on the country and also talks about the mini and it's heritage so kinda on topic with this thread.

http://www.motoringfile.com/2010/05/20/motoringfile-1st-drive-mini-countryman-cooper-s/

[weefossy]

Agee with lot's that has been said but I'm too old for hardcore, my old body and mind can't take it :hand:
As I used to ask every girl..... "How far do you go?".......before it gets "too fast and furious?" Allan took it up to a very expensive 300bhp, but I'm not sure it was everyday practical. He may be able to answer that.
For me the JCW with sport mode on goes as fast as I want to and I do like "all the extras" on any car I have. The R56 doesn't have the raw edge of the R53 nor the wonderfull supercharger whine, but at my age I prefer the balance and motorway comfort of the R56.

I suppose I should also stand up for the JCW WC50, but as with every Mini it's up to the individual's choice and budget, so I probably don't need to. One comment on the price, if you add up everything that is in it, it's the same price as any other JCW with extras, which is exactly what it is. And if you think of all the money that NMS members, me included, have spent on individual add ons, there is not much difference in the sums.
What does a carrbon fibre wing mirror cost, cause I can't see my behind any better for it!! :smilewinkgrin:

[weefossy]

It's way past my bedtime, but just thought....... is the answer not to buy a JCW "Challenge Car" and tune it to what power is wanted. It's can be road legal, can't it?

[Bazthemod]

Yes, I know my Mini/MINI history facts too. BMW's American Frank Stephenson, along with his team, DESIGNED the SHAPE, he didn't do the gubbins UNDER the shape, that was a combination of Rover and BMW (eg the BMW's 'Z-Axle' rear setup, which was pretty unusual in a small car but helped the MINI to handle better than the opposition at the time - so kudos to bee-em for that). But it's still a combined effort - not purely BMW.

I also don't remember anyone with a big stick at BMW lurking over Frank's team's shoulders when they were shaping the new car... Why get your design team involved in a project and then DICTATE to them what the design should be? Stephenson's since worked with/for Fiat, Ferrari, McLaren, Alfa Romeo etc etc - he's a 'Top Gun for Hire', and I don't believe he would work under, or put up with 'Heavy Monitoring' in the sense that you seem to be intimating. AND I don't care if there 'was a documentary about it'! :argh:

Like Ian has said, the ACV 30 etc were purely DESIGN STUDIES - exercises to try to find a new version of the Mini - and whether you like them or not isn't really the point. Even if they were 'decoys' to some extent, I defy anyone to say that there are no recognisable styling cues which were later to appear in the MINI. :cool: The cars you've illustrated aren't necessarily the 'destination', they're part of the journey and to put them in isolation in comparison with the finished MINI design is like showing us the ingredients for a cake and saying it's not a good cake. :hand:

Sorry about the debate, but Forums tend to bring that out in people. You don't work for BMW do you Baz? :smilewinkgrin:

Hahaha, Believe what you want, you know best!

I wish designers got free reign ... would make our jobs so much easier! ;)

[ELFMAN]

Hahaha, Believe what you want, you know best!

Certainly don't think I know best. :hand:

Been thinking about this over the weekend. :argh: What's slowly dawning on me is that I've been around this scene a bit too long. :sad::yes nod: and have lost sight of what got me into it in the first place. :idunno: Driving the same car for nine years (albeit different versions) can possibly make you a bit stale. They say familiarity breeds contempt and while I'm certainly not contemptuous about anything MINI, there are times when there are so many other things you have to deal with in life these days that it takes the shine (Meguiars or otherwise) off messing about in cars. I guess I was being a bit negative, maybe MINI's not the one who has hit Middle Age... but it did start an interesting wee debate! :ragin::shut up:

This Summer I'm just going to try to enjoy my MINI more and let Business take care of itself - just like in 'The Good Old Days' :bigwave::flag:

[Scottie]

I have to say after seeing Weefossy car out and about at the weekend and with the recent photos of the highland tour for me Mini has made one mean looking motor:thumbs up: with this limited edition it may not be hardcore enough for some but it's a nice motor and I would be glad to own one.:thumbs up:

[Forbes]

I have to say after seeing Weefossy car out and about at the weekend and with the recent photos of the highland tour for me Mini has made one mean looking motor:thumbs up: with this limited edition it may not be hardcore enough for some but it's a nice motor and I would be glad to own one.:thumbs up:

That thing is awesome

[Scottie]

Agreed and actually I would like his seats need to keep and eye open for some the red trim to the seats is cool, I would like his lights also. Wonder if he keeps the car garaged at night do you think he would noticed if I swapped his lights for mine.
:hand::p:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

That thing is awesome

[GCA3N]

This Summer I'm just going to try to enjoy my MINI more and let Business take care of itself - just like in 'The Good Old Days' :bigwave::flag:

Quite right. Well said.

[ELFMAN]

Malcolm - you don't have to defend the WC50, and I apologise if I appeared to be dumping on it, I said I thought it was a lovely motor, and it is. BMW are bringing out a 'GTS' version of the M3 (see January's 'EVO' magazine, or 'www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/First-Official-Pictures/BMW-M3-GTS-2010-first-pictures-the-new-M3-CSL/') and I suppose I'm just really wishing they would do a version of the JCW in that mould - it would be awesome! Maybe I'm just clinging to my Boy-Racer past...

You bought the WC50 for all the right reasons, you're using it and enjoying it - and we all enjoy seeing it doing what it's meant to do. Most WC50's will never even see a decent road, let alone be punted down it in Winter-time with a bunch of 'ordinary' MINIs! So if I've 'Dissed the '50', it wasn't my intention - it just got caught up in the general ranting. I'd really hate to think I'd caused two of my fave NMS buddies any consternation. By the way, those Recaros are dead comfy!

[Crombers]

The WC50 is just 'average', nowt to write home about really ........................................:rolleyes: :Whistle:

[ELFMAN]

Crombers, do you need a hand with that big spoon...?

[Crombers]

Crombers, do you need a hand with that big spoon...?

Eh ....................... no not really :smilewinkgrin:

Malcolm very kindly offered me a wee shot on Monday up at Glenshee

'Feckin awesome' is my REAL reply :thumbs up:

[Stewart]

I’m glad the WC50 was on the scene over weekend, a great car being used right for pure enjoyment on the best roads. I like the variety from Mr C’s and Ben’s through the Coopers, the S and Works even the Convertible that all looked fantastic and not forgetting the GP’s this year.

When your sitting behind them watching them twist round a bend and head up a hill it’s great and reminds me why I wanted one in the first place.

Next year I’m sure will be even more varied :thumbs up:

[weefossy]

Thanks for all the nice comments guys, I'm just catching up on the recent posts.:thumbs up:
Euan absolutely no need for any apology, I agree with lots of your comments and it has been a good thread with lots of varied ideas.
I think a "hardcore mini" would have lots of fans. I do think BMW, as with any manufacturer, have a hard job trying to "cover all the bases" and most of the time there is a compromise in the end result. Probably Andy and I are the only people on here that would think a hard core Mini could possibly have an automatic gearbox!!
We love the JCW 50 and it perfomed wonderfully on the Highland run, even with my driving :blush: it's still a bu@@er to keep clean.
Fi, somehow the seats are a much better fit for me than the ones in The Van, yet they are exactly the same seats, which is daft!! Nothing to compare with the Recarro's in the red convertible though.

[Scottie]

Fi, somehow the seats are a much better fit for me than the ones in The Van, yet they are exactly the same seats, which is daft!! Nothing to compare with the Recarro's in the red convertible though.

Aye those were good seats. I wonder who has the car now.

[ELFMAN]

Cheers Malcolm - I do get carried away at times... sometimes literally! I've put my soapbox away for the Summer.

[Big Gordy]

I've put my soapbox away for the Summer.
Jings don't do that :thud: no one will see you standing at the back :moonie::p

[Mon the fish]

The thing is, the JCW50 has shown there are people willing to pay £30k for a Mini. Now, imagine if the £30k went on performance parts/weight saving, rather than equipment? Remember the M3 CSL, and how much more expensive than a normal E46 M3 it was?

I'm sure a properly-developed lighter, faster, hardcore JCW for £30k would sell. Just stick some plates on the challenge cars!

[ELFMAN]

Jings don't do that :thud: no one will see you standing at the back :moonie::p

Right, Big Man, ootside - NOW!
(..... where's me step ladder...?)