tracking advice

[lowrider]

I noticed today that both my front wheels are worn on the outside of the tread face. I assume I need to get my tracking adjusted. Can I book this into any garage or is it dealers only ? Its been years since I have had to get this done, what are the expected costs ?

Thanks, Ag.

[Forbes]

I got mine done at Kwik-Fit for £15 (if i remember right) after i went through a pothole and got my front wheels changed.
Took about 30mins as both sides were well out.

[lowrider]

I was'nt sure if I had read that this was a dealer only job as the tooling was specialist to BMW.

[john]

Any decent garage will do it:thumbs up:

[GCA3N]

Defo the tracking is away. You can get this done at any tyre and exhaust centre. To be honest i would stay clear of most kwikfits. (there are some exceptions, Greenock kwikfit is good) If you are replacing your tyres, even if it is only 2, you can get the work done fro free. Difficult time everywhere so call about and get the best price, hope this helps:thumbs up:

[AndyP & Lenore]

Your local dealer will do a full KDM wheel alignment. Not sure what is involved but they use lasers and some fancy apparatus to ensure all the wheels are aligned properly. But then they'll charge you about £250 for the pleasure. As opposed to a Kwik Fit jobbie for £15.

Personally I'd be very weary of the £15 job from almost anyone. But It would also stick in my gut if I had to pay the huge dealers fee. They take about 2 hours to do it, which is why it costs so much. Also you get a computer printout showing all the tolerances of your wheels. What good this is to anyone I have no idea.

A.

[Gismo]

If you enjoy spirited driving then the outer edges of your tyres will wear :thumbs up:
But, for peace of mind, Big Gordy knows a place you can get it done

[Big Gordy]

My mate John runs his one man operation out of a unit in Bonnybridge. He specialises in wheel alignment and has a very expensive state of the art machine:cool: He does all Knockhill's trackday cars I think. Don't qoute me but I think he's about 75 quid for a full 4 wheel alignment. Its cheaper if you just want the fronts done tho:thumbs up: He too gives you a computer readout of what all your wheels are doing:Whistle:If you need more info I can PM you his details:smilewinkgrin:

[C.Noble]

I would strongly recommend AGAINST the kwik fit route!!!!!

The kwik fit machines are ok, nothing special, but can be accurate enough if used properly, which is extremely unlikely in kwik fit... especially for £15!!!

The type of machine used is all well and good, and it is nice to get a print out, but it means nothing if the machine has been used incorrectly, or the alignment adjusted in the wrong manner.

Make sure that whoever carries out the alignment out knows what they are doing, and can explain to you what is causing your tyre wear... I know this is gonna cause countless arguments, but wear on the outer edges of a tyre is NOT caused by tracking unless it is so far out it screeches tyres in a straight line!!! And if a so called "specialist" ever tells you the cause of a pull to one side is front tracking... never let him near your track rods!!!

Oh and by the way, Gismo is right :thumbs up:!

Rant over!

[Gismo]

Oh and by the way, Gismo is right :thumbs up:!
:Whistle: :clap: :D

[lowrider]

I do enjoy 'spirited' driving but its mainly a daily 25 mile regular commute I drive.
Nice rant Mr Noble! the wear is on the outside, does that mean tracking adjustment would be pointless? I don't want to buy new rubber to have the same problem down the line.

[C.Noble]

Here is a basic guide to wheel alignment... VERY basic, I have a whole shelf load of books on the subject! (I really need to get a life someday!)

I am sorry its a bit big.... and boring if your not into this sort of thing, but at least you can use it to find out if your being bull$hitted by some "specialist".

Tracking/toe;

This is the angle of the front wheels relative to each other looking down on them i.e if a car is said to be "toeing out 2mm" that means the distance measured between the centre of the treads at the front of the tyres is 2mm LARGER than the same measurement at the rear of the tyre tread, in other words both front wheels are pointing out the way a little... toe in would be the reverse, pointing in a little.

Front toe really only has an effect on the feel of the steering, excessive toe in will cause a wandering, vague feeling, particularly on bumps where you can find yourself correcting unpredictable "dives" accross the road.
Excessive toe out is a little less difficult to "feel" as it generally makes the car better to an extent, but it can make the a bit unstable on bumpy roads, but only if it is miles out! Usually, but not always, incorrect front toe should show up with an off centre steering wheel.... IT SHOULD NEVER CAUSE A PULL TO ONE SIDE!!! (sorry, but it really winds me up when people say this!)

Rear toe can cause a pull, in fact it is the usual cause of steering pulls. excessive toe in is almost impossible for the average driver to detect (other than in their wallet when it comes to tyre wear!). Excessive toe out is HORRIBLE, the car will be very vague and wandery, making you feel like you have no confidence to push the car quickly into a corner as you feel the back end steer... think forklift truck stylee!!!

All incorrect wheel alignment will cause accelerated tyre wear, but incorrect toe will show first as a "feathering" of the tread, this is when the tread blocks wear at an angle as the tyre scrbs partially sideways along the road, best way of feeling it is to slide your hand sideways accross the tread, if there is feathering, you will feel it as smooth to slide you hand one way, but you feel the edges of the tread block "slicing" against your hand the other way. Only in exteme cases should the edges of the tread wear prematurely... and in that case, the feathering should be REALLY obvious.

Camber;

Camber is the angle of the tyre/wheel viewed from the front, or rear, of the car, positive camber is when the wheel "leans" out the way, negative camber is when it "leans" in the way.

You dont so much feel the camber of a wheel as a driver, more the relationship between the opposing sides camber angles, i.e if they both lean in towards each other, or away from each other by the same amount, you wont really feel it at all. It is when they are unequally leaning the problems begin, in extreme cases, loads of lean OUT the way on one side, loads of lean IN the way on the other, you will feel a pull as the wheels do a leaning motorbike impression!

Incorrect camber will show on tyre wear as uneven accross the width of the tread pattern, if you have plenty of tread left on one side, but bald on the other side of the tread pattern, get the camber checked.

Castor;

Castor angle is ONLY relavent to the front wheels, and it is the most overlooked angle... and the most misunderstood! Incorrect Castor itself will not cause tyre wear unless it is REALLY bad, but as it basically is the basis of the "self centering effect" of the steering, it is the one the driver feels the most.

Castor angle should ALWAYS be a positive angle, and the effect of this angle is to "lift" the ride height of the inside wheel as you steer, and drop the ride height of the outside wheel, you can see it if you park close to a wall at night, put on the headlights, and turn the steering slowly from lock to lock, you should see the headlight pattern on the wall go up and down a little as you steer. The rising and falling of the body makes the steering self centre in the position where the body is level... its difficult to follow without pictures to explain, but basically, LOTS of castor means LOTS of self centering, which can make a car feel like a go kart... but too much makes it difficult/heavy to steer.

It is vital that the opposing sides have less than half a degree in the differance between their angles, or the car will pull to one side... its this angle that usually causes a car to feel horrible after a heavy collision with the scenary, and as it is non adjustable on most cars, the most expensive to fix!!!

And if anyone ever tries to tell you it castor has anything to do with castor wheels on shopping trollies... they dont understand castor!

Thats it, lesson over, I am off to the pub to find a life :beer:... and will leave you lot to find the will to live :argh:!!!

[C.Noble]

I do enjoy 'spirited' driving but its mainly a daily 25 mile regular commute I drive.
Nice rant Mr Noble! the wear is on the outside, does that mean tracking adjustment would be pointless? I don't want to buy new rubber to have the same problem down the line.

In your case Mr Lowrider, it is possible that the toe is out loads on your MINI, should show up as feathering tho. It is also possible that the camber is out, unlikely unless there has ever been a run in with the scenary... although the tend to wear the inner edges if you lower the MINIs.

I expect though, that if you enjoy 'spirited' driving, the roll resistance (fancy term) of the MINIs is bollix when standard so that when you throw the car into corners, the whole car 'leans' over and wears the outer edge of the tyres on the outside.

The only way to begin reducing this effect is to adjust the camber to be more negative to start with (so that it compensates for the roll angle) which will mean buying "camber adjustable top mounts", which are about £200 for a DECENT pair or increase the roll resistance of the car, you can go down the "uprated dampers and springs" route, expect to pay around a grand or so for a decent kit, or you can fit an uprated rear anti roll bar like we are in the MINIs this season, which will cost about £120 and take an hour or so to fit.

[Gismo]

All good stuff Chris :thumbs up:
Would a good front strut brace also work??

In any event, not sure what car you got LR, but, i have a rear anti roll bar taken of my first S circa 52 plate, pre facelift anyway :blush:
If it fits and it's useful for you then you can have it for free :thumbs up:

[lowrider]

Wow, some great advice, my head is spinning !
Thanks.
Mr Gismo my cooper is an r50 built December 2001(registered 2002) If the bar fits, I would really appreciate it.

What a nice bunch we all are here ! :thumbs up:

The outside edge of my front tyres (about 5cm in) appear to be worn, with the rest of the tyre appearing fine. The handling does appear jumpy/unpredictable accross bumps. Am I correct in thinking it is a tracking or camber issue then ?

I have priced new tyres and Viking International are doing a good deal on Dunlop sp sport 3000's @ £80 each + fitting. Worth noting.

[lowrider]

Bump