NMS's Energy Debate

[Smitty]

Evening All!

As you some of you will know, I'm now working for E.ON down in the Midlands. E.ON are one of the big four utilities companies in the UK, and the 2nd biggest in the world - so as a result we receive piles of abuse and protest's directed at ourselves with regards to CO2 emissions.

We had direct protests towards us today at our headquarters in Coventry and at many other locations. They were voicing there opinions on E.ON's plans to build a new Coal Fired Power Station at Kingsnorth, in Kent.

So I thought, what better way to get genuine peoples feeling than to get a NMS view on all this! :D

So - go ahead, voice your opinions and concerns surrounding, not just Kingsnorth and not just E.ON, but energy consumption, generation and CO2 emissions across the board.

I'll have to be careful, and I'm not going to voice my opinion as that could land me in trouble, but what I will do is fill you in with facts and figures, and direct you to further information that I know is correct that could give you a different view on it all!

Let the debate begin......:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

[Gismo]

Personally i don't really care too much what gets pumped into the atmosphere.
Nature looks after itself and we are just in the middle of the next age, whatever that may be ;)
Not really what you're looking for :hand:

[Craig]

I'm with Alan on this one...

nothing I do as one of the trillions of people on the planet is going to make a huge difference. And can I really change how an energy company goes about it's business... :rolleyes: I don't think so.

There will probably be some eco-mentalist out there that will say that I have to take more responsibility and that we can all make a difference if we work together... :argh::argh: yeah right, wake up and smell the carbon footprint.. :thud::Whistle:

Got 2 words for you when it comes to us reducing our output of emissions... USA and CHINA !!! :idea:

[The Dogfather]

I do care what happens to the environment but its a bit like closing the door after the horse has bolted though. As soon as the global economy recovers China and India power needs will ramp up and so will the use fossil fuels.

Our (UK) tiny reductions are meaningless and we're only doing it so we can lecture others. We'd be better off spending money on storm and flood defences and relocating the capital to higher ground.

In summary we're f*cked!

[Smitty]

I'm with Alan on this one...

nothing I do as one of the trillions of people on the planet is going to make a huge difference. And can I really change how an energy company goes about it's business... :rolleyes: I don't think so.

Valid point Craig - and this is the problem that the energy companies are trying to address. In reality - the short term solution to "climate change" is to change the way people use energy. They can't just suddenly build renewable energy sources and decommission every CO2 polluting power station.

The problem they face is that they are not going to be able to change everyone's usage habits. The minute you tell people to start switching off everything in sight, to reduce the amount of journey's they take via plane, train and automobile the public automatically go into shutdown and say "not a chance"

I would say I'm environmentally friendly as I can be - I'll turn off lights, standby switches, I'll wear an extra jumper instead of putting on the heating. But you'll not catch me selling my PS3 and big TV. I'll not stop myself from going on an airplane because it's easier to get to Scotland. And you'll defiantly not find me selling my MINI and buying a Prius or some other highly economical car. :frown:

So a question I pose to you - if there was a simple way you could reduce the energy you consume, and as a result reduce you CO2 emmisions, but at the same time it would involve minimal to no effort and wouldn't cost you any more - would you support it?

[Gismo]

So a question I pose to you - if there was a simple way you could reduce the energy you consume, and as a result reduce you CO2 emmisions, but at the same time it would involve minimal to no effort and wouldn't cost you any more - would you support it?Probably not

[Smitty]

As soon as the global economy recovers China and India power needs will ramp up and so will the use fossil fuels.


Sadly true :sad:



Our (UK) tiny reductions are meaningless and we're only doing it so we can lecture others.

I see where your coming from but I wouldn't go that far. I think lecture is the wrong word to use - but "set an example" is probably a better phrase to use.

I see it as a possibility for the UK to be world leaders in Renewable Energy and energy consumption. As a result, other countries will come to us for the "knowledge" that we have built up over the years, adding the to wealth of the economy. It's a long way off, a pipe dream some may say, but undoubtedly it could happen.

But we are not the leader right now - although we are trying!!

[Smitty]

Probably not

Typical Oil Company worker attitude!! :p :smilewinkgrin:

Can I ask why not? If it involved minimal effort & change, and no price increase - could you not see it as a good thing?

Another one to pose to you - if it saved you money, would you support it?

[Gismo]

As a result, other countries will come to us for the "knowledge" that we have built up over the years, adding the to wealth of the economySorry Smitty, given that we are about to borrow the largest amount of dosh "our" country has ever seen we'll never be a wealthy country :frown:
Renewable energy, that's a joke, you try and put up a wind turbine somewhere near Mr live in the sticks back garden ;)

[Gismo]

Can I ask why not? If it involved minimal effort & change, and no price increase - could you not see it as a good thing?
It'd just be another government fad that is meant to look like something to our global neighbours when in fact it would be impossible for it to save us money, no government will do that.
Besides if it requires minimal effort, then no effort wouldn't make any significant difference


Another one to pose to you - if it saved you money, would you support it?Hypothetical, but, in reality it would never happen, tell me one plan that has reduced any of our fuel related taxes, they even have to put up the fuel duty to erect the turbines, locally :thumbs up:

[Smitty]

Sorry Smitty, given that we are about to borrow the largest amount of dosh "our" country has ever seen we'll never be a wealthy country :frown:

Haha - agreed, but that's a whole different matter, let's just put that to the back of our minds for now, however hard that is!!


Renewable energy, that's a joke, you try and put up a wind turbine somewhere near Mr live in the sticks back garden ;)

And people have the right to protest, in the same way others have the right to protest against coal power stations being built, or oil being burnt. There's no right or wrong answer, and whatever the answer is, there will be people who are unhappy.

Lets throw in another factor to the debate.....NUCLEAR Power. "Almost" carbon free, highly reliable supply, cheap, and safe, despite what people think. Is this the answer??

[AndyP & Lenore]

I know that for the last year or so we've been turning lights off we don't need and switching the TV off instead of standby etc. But it has absolutely nothing to do with saving a doomed planet. It is purely to save money. All our energy prices (gas and leccy) seem to just keep flying up and we keep getting told it's because the cost of wholesale energy prices are rising. Why? Why are these prices going up? It can't be because of a drop in demand, and there's no lack of supply - or is there? So, c'mon Smitty, as you're in the industry, tell my why YOU guys have to pay so much more for your products. And I don't just mean in comparison to inflation, I accept all prices rise, thats the nature of the beast of inflation. But I know that when we first moved into this house we were paying roughly £150 a year for gas. It's now nearer £800. Thats just GAS!

We're very lucky, if it doubled from £800 I would be pissed but just get on with it, but many more families are really hurting with these price increases.

Smitty one of your questions was would we change our habits if it would save the planet and cost nothing. I submit to you, neither are possible for two very different reasons. You can't halt nature. And nothing costs nothing.

A.

[Smitty]

Hypothetical, but, in reality it would never happen, tell me one plan that has reduced any of our fuel related taxes, they even have to put up the fuel duty to erect the turbines, locally :thumbs up:

I agree with every you say Alan - and I try to sit as evenly in this big debate as possible.

I'm just waiting for an eco-friendly NMS member to come along - then your in trouble :hand: :smilewinkgrin:

Then again - not sure if you can class a MINI driver as eco-friendly, especially JCW owners!! :p

[Scottie]

I think the power companies would be better employed reducing their charges to the consumer first before they go spending our money on new power stations.

Once they have done that, then yes build a coal powered power station.


What we really need is to get rid of are those bl00dy wind turbines. They are meant to be working at a minimum of 25% efficiency but it has been found that most that's almost 97% of wind turbines are working at less than 12% efficiency as a result for the UK to become totally wind dependent almost 98% of the land mass would have to be taken up with wind turbines.

So I guess I am not a greenie but I do switch everything of not for my carbon foot print but BECAUSE ALL POWER COMPANIES CHARGE TO MUCH reduce your charges.:hand::p;)

[Gismo]

Lets throw in another factor to the debate.....NUCLEAR Power. "Almost" carbon free, highly reliable supply, cheap, and safe, despite what people think. Is this the answer??Yep, nuclear, all the way and it's something we are good at and world leaders.

[Smitty]

Why? Why are these prices going up? It can't be because of a drop in demand, and there's no lack of supply - or is there? So, c'mon Smitty, as you're in the industry, tell my why YOU guys have to pay so much more for your products.

I don't no the in's and outs of it all, i've only been in the job for 3 months, but I'll try my best to explain. As you can probably respect, I have to be careful what I say!! :Whistle:

Our retail part of the business (the part that sells the Electricity to you) made a very large loss last year. They are also currently sitting on a very large price levy, that should be put out to the customers but it would just cause chaos. Where E.ON and other utilities make there money right now is in the Generation or electricity and the distribution (i.e. getting it from the power station to your house).

So why do prices keep rising, and never go down - gas prices keep rising, coal prices keep rising, and when they do come down you don't see the instant effect in your bill as utilities companies buy up there requirements months in advance. And when the prices do drop, the utility companies take this opportunity to make back some money. Atfter all they are in the business to make money, but not to fleece the general public.

The other problem is the Renewable energies - they are not cheap, and cost a LOT of money in development and instalation. As a result, these price knock on's are by me and you paying the bill. And why - because this is what the goverment and apparently the "public" want - Green Energy.

But i'm afriad Green Energy doesn't come cheap!!

The information is out there to tell you why. The problem is the "truth" doesn't make good news so it's never really highlighted on the news. All we ever hear about is rising prices and how our energy companies keep making bigger profits every year, which is true.



And nothing costs nothing.


Too true Andy. But as I said above, the goverment want green energy, apparently the public want green energy - but it wont come cheaply :frown:

[Smitty]

Yep, nuclear, all the way and it's something we are good at and world leaders.

We are hardly world leaders on that....

France and Germany have much better experience on that front!!

[Smitty]

Once they have done that, then yes build a coal powered power station.

The reason for E.ON building a new power station is because the old one HAS to be decommission as it is reaching end of life - in the same way an Oil Rig reaches end of life.

We need the power station, otherwise there would not be enough electricity for the UK - demand would not be met. So the cheapest option is to build a coal power station.

I don't mean to rub you up the wrong way here Fi - but I'm pretty sure that if you couldn't get your lights and TV to work, you'd be much more pissed of than if your bills went up a little!!



What we really need is to get rid of are those bl00dy wind turbines. They are meant to be working at a minimum of 25% efficiency but it has been found that most that's almost 97% of wind turbines are working at less than 12% efficiency as a result for the UK to become totally wind dependent almost 98% of the land mass would have to be taken up with wind turbines.


Your facts are pretty much spot on - and that's the thing, Wind is not the answer. It help's, but it is so far off the solution it's unbelievable!!

[C.Noble]

I hate to get drawn into these debates... especially envronmental ones as they go against everything I stand for, but at the sametime I see the "eco-mentalists" point!

I have just gone through a season which has seen my team (5-7 cars) consume an average of 200-250 litres of petrol every race weekend (thats about 2000 litres over the year!), not to mention the diesel consumed to get the damned MINIs there in the first place!! So the last thing I am gonna claim to be is "environmentally conscious".

I dont even agree with the "global warming" idea either, the numbers just dont stack up for me, not when compared with natural CO2 emissions which quite simply dwarf the cars or the human industrial contribution.

I do, however, see the glaringly obvious. The use of fossil fuels is quite simply unsustainable. We are consuming a fuel source faster and faster, and worse still, this fuel source is not being produced by the planet in anything like the same quantity, and in the case of oil, it quite simply is not even being produced anymore (produced, not discovered/gathered).

So even if I do like the burbling sound of a good V8 or the scream of a F1 V10, or the "tarmac shredding" of a big turbo diesel, even I know that these have to become a thing of the past eventually.

My personal, and quite naive, belief is that we should be using all the "oil wealth" and fuel taxation to fund research into sustainable sources of fuel/energy production now while we still have time.

I only hope, before its too late, we grasp the concept of what will happen to society if fossil based fuels, in particular oil, run out. I dont want to overdramatise the scenario, but think of the fighting we had on the forecourts this year during the tanker drivers strike... times 1000!!

But in the meantime, I will continue to drive to the shops, go on driving around Scotland on holiday and tipping LOADS of petrol in to MINIs to watch them go round and round in circles until someone comes up with a better way of doing it!!!

And if the worst comes to the worst, when we do run out of oil, I will get myself a big V8 and call myself MadMax instead of MINImax!!!

[Smitty]

Brilliant post C.Noble!! I like your view on things :thumbs up: And defo don't stop tipping petrol into those raccing MINI's! ;)

Keep them coming guys - I'm not here to prove anyone wrong, or argue for any side - it's just interesting to have a big debate with educated people about a subject I feel passionately for! :yes nod:

[Gismo]

Explain one thing to me, how do manage a reserve like oil to last forever, how do you dish it out so that you never run out of it :thud:

[C.Noble]

Explain one thing to me, how do manage a reserve like oil to last forever, how do you dish it out so that you never run out of it :thud:

You cant, just like you can never find a vodka bottle that never runs out (and lord knows I have looked for it!!).

So if we cant make it last forever, and we know our energy needs are only gonna increase (despite what the Greenies want), and the personal transport thing is now well in truly out of the bag (all give up our cars and go back to horses and bicycles? yeah right!), we have to find an alternative... or face the prospect of running out... and if that happens, then its off to the thunderdome we go :smilewinkgrin:!!!

[Sheilz]

highly reliable supply, cheap, and safe, [/quote]

B*ll*cks!

[illegalhunter]

CO2 levels were 14x the level they are right now , during the Cretatious period

[The Dogfather]

CO2 levels were 14x the level they are right now , during the Cretatious period

yes and the average sea level was 200m higher and the temp was sorchio.

Mind you that might mean I'd have a tropical seafront property :D

[illegalhunter]

well iam on the coast

[AndyP & Lenore]

well iam on the coast

You'll be first to drown then.:moonie:

A.;)

[Smitty]

highly reliable supply, cheap, and safe,

B*ll*cks!

Care to back that up with some facts?? :Whistle: ;)

[Smitty]

We had more protesters on Monday - you may have seen it on the BBC news website. Dressed up as Santa Claus and super glued themselves to the windows.

Clever idea :eek: :argh:

[Sheilz]

Care to back that up with some facts?? :Whistle: ;)

sure:



Decommisioning
Waste storage
Disposal
environmental costs
health service costs