Rip F1

[euan]

What a load of balls that was. Lewis stripped of his win, 25 second penalty so he ends up third and oh, guess what? A Ferrari wins.

Best last 5 laps on any GP in the last few years, I see nothing wrong with what Lewis did at all, he attempted a move, Kimi moved over onto him so he went over the chicane and conceded the place, then retook him on the next corner. And then he gets it stripped by some political w***er on a mission to stuff McLaren. If I was McLaren I'd tell the FIA where to go.

Afterwards I was considering going to Belgium next year, they can stuff it, I'm keeping my money.

[Gaz B]

Didn't know that had happened Euan!:confused: Sat and watched the full race and you are right that was the best last 5 laps I have seen. Hamilton is in a class of his own.:D

[The Dogfather]

I can't believe it, what a rip off. Haven't seen the race but it sounds like he gave the advantage back to Kimi after pulling out of an overtaking move

[tonyjac]

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d Forza Ferrari;)

[euan]

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d Forza Ferrari;)

Well, let me ask this, as your a Ferrari fan - do you want to win the championship via the stewards like last year, or on the racetrack, where it should be won?

I'm just fed up, I just want fairness in the series. Massa got fined in Valencia when he could (and should) have had a race penalty in the same way that Hamilton had today. One rule for the red cars, another for McLaren. Not on.

[rpn]

Afterwards I was considering going to Belgium next year, they can stuff it, I'm keeping my money.


I was there today, :D just back now in my sister's house in Holland about two hours ago after 4 hours drive back from Belgium. :eek:

I thought Lewis won the race fair and square, he let Kimi through back to first place then over took him to win! Can't see anything wrong there.

Will post some pic once I'm back in Scotland.

[The Dogfather]

Ferrari and (some of) their fans don't care how its won, or the damage these biased decisions do to the sport. I had a look at the BBC 606 boards earlier and there's some incredibly stupid arguments for why the penalty was correct. :ragin:

Sorry but unless this is overturned then F1 is lost.

[tonyjac]

hi guys rules are rules at the end of the day i would feel exactly the same if it was kimi who done that to hamilton today as for last year well you know what they say about copycats,:yes nod:

[The Dogfather]

hi guys rules are rules at the end of the day i would feel exactly the same if it was kimi who done that to hamilton today as for last year well you know what they say about copycats,:yes nod:

Shame they get rewritten every race to ensure a Ferrari victory at the end of the season.

[tonyjac]

i also agree that the last 5 laps where fantastic a credit to the sport:yes nod:

[Craig]

F1 is a fraud..... :frown:

it's all about the money and nothing to do with who won the race or fairness... :eyes up:

ecclestone wants to look after ferrari and makes sure they get the "luck".

shame on you F1....:frown::frown:

[Craig]

just watched the last 5 laps of the race again. I can see nothing illegal and if this is let to stand, then ferrari can keep their championship.....

bunch of cheats...:moonie:

[indigomatt]

Hamilton ~ who will NEVER be overtaken on the outside..... :Whistle: had faster speed down the main straight and could therefore overtake at the first corner.....why.....?

Simple; as he didn’t stay on the track, he could get more drive down than the Ferrari out of the last corner, it was after all wet.....

That advantage was unfairly won, is meaningless that he had relinquished the place momentarily.....

Don't think it was a fair punishment mind; was it normally for unfair advantage gains; a drive through :yes nod:

So looking back he got off lightly, so wheres the favouritism......?

[euan]

This will probably come down today when Bernie gets his lawyers on it, but you can see here he doesn't do anything wrong. Lewis cuts the chicane and short shifts down the straight, though doesn't lift. LINK (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M)

It's all about interpretation of the rules, and as far as I'm aware the rules are that if you gain an advantage you should give the place back, there is nothing there that says you must back right off. Had Lewis stayed in 2nd till the straight out of La Rouge, I can't see that he'd have got done.

[euan]

Hamilton ~ who will NEVER be overtaken on the outside..... :Whistle: had faster speed down the main straight and could therefore overtake at the first corner.....why.....?

Simple; as he didn’t stay on the track, he could get more drive down than the Ferrari out of the last corner, it was after all wet.....

That advantage was unfairly won, is meaningless that he had relinquished the place momentarily.....

Don't think it was a fair punishment mind; was it normally for unfair advantage gains; a drive through :yes nod:

So looking back he got off lightly, so wheres the favouritism......?


So how come at Valencia Ferrari were seen to gain an unfair advantage from the pitstop when Massa pulled out dangerously, and he got fined and not a drive through (which as you say is the usual penalty)?

[indigomatt]

So how come at Valencia Ferrari were seen to gain an unfair advantage from the pitstop when Massa pulled out dangerously, and he got fined and not a drive through (which as you say is the usual penalty)?



As you said yourself, Valencia was in the pits; i was meaning the usual penalty for cutting a corner and gaining an unfair advantage.....

I's can't watch you-tube at work.....so have ot seen incar footage.....

BTW i am not a Ferrari fan or a Hamilton ~ who will NEVER be overtaken on the outside..... fan.....

[tonyjac]

well i am a FERRARI man and thankyou indigo for making this as clear as day:yes nod:

[Neil and Lorna]

So how come at Valencia Ferrari were seen to gain an unfair advantage from the pitstop when Massa pulled out dangerously, and he got fined and not a drive through (which as you say is the usual penalty)?




In Valencia it was the team that made the mistake not the driver. So the penalty dished out there was fair.

Also who can remember Kimi hitting the back of Sutill at Monaco this year with no penalty.

Seams to me there's some sort of bias towards Ferrari.

Neil.

[Gismo]

Haven't seen the race yet ;) but will do sometime today :thumbs up: but, i obviously know the result now, my fault :blush:
Looking forward to some healthy debate on this topic :nag:

[john]

I watched the highlights, and for me it was good viewing.
As for the final result I don't really care.

I watch many different types of racing and enjoy it, for me it's about the race on the track and not the politics that follow.

I jacked in the MINI racing because of budget, I really enjoyed it even though I was not that great at it, sadly in all motor sport there are rules for some and other rules for others.(thats why Andrew and my self and many more have stopped the mini stock car racing) Bullies will always win.

I am looking forward to getting the new car ready for NON-contact racing.

And I don't care if I don't win but it would be nice.

[indigomatt]

In Valencia it was the team that made the mistake not the driver. So the penalty dished out there was fair.

Also who can remember Kimi hitting the back of Sutill at Monaco this year with no penalty.

Seams to me there's some sort of bias towards Ferrari.

Neil.

MONACO

Did Kimi cut the corner - yes.....

Did Kimi overtake - yes.....

Did he gain an unfairadvantage - no

Did he gain an advantage - yes

However it was not deliberate; as he was NOT attempting to overtake at that time, it was a CRASH.....!


:argh: :argh: :argh:

[The Dogfather]

In car data shows that at the finish/start line Lewis was 6kph slower than Kimi, hence the MM appeal. So how can you argue that Lewis had the momentum if he was slower at the same point as Kimi?

The facts are that Kimi stuffed up the next corner because he was under pressure from Lewis, he just made a mistake. He made one later when he put his car into the barrier.

I guess that's what you get for driving with a hangover :D

[illegalhunter]

They dont want the Black Kid to win , simple as that.

[euan]

From what I've read, they claim he got the slipstream advantage - which is rubbish as Lewis was nowhere near the back of the Ferrari - Kimi was on the racing line going into the hairpin and moved over to block Lewis - that was fair game.

They say he gained unfair advantage - over who? Kimi didn't finish the race ;-)

As for the pitlane incidents - yes it did occur in the pits so I can accept a different penalty - though where is the standards that he got a 10 position grid demotion and Massa got a fine?

Matt - you say that at monaco it was a crash - yes it was but it was still an avoidable one had he braked. See Heiki yesterday for comparisions - racing incident, deliberate, or accident? - it's a fine line. Lewis avoided an accident as he got out of the way of Kimi, then let him back through. So why should he be punished for that?

[euan]

They dont want the Black Kid to win , simple as that.

Particularly in a car that isn't red. If I was McLaren I'd paint the cars red for Monza in protest. ;)

[euan]

Oh and BS - sorry for spoiling the result for you!!

[mini saltire]

I was out of my seat about 10 times on those last few laps. Awesome job by Lewis!! There should have been no penalty for Hamilton.. and here is why:

They were racing fairly for position. At the chicane where he cut the corner, would everyone rather have seen Hamilton give Kimmi a tap and spin him and blame the conditions (Schuie style) and go on to win..or pull out the best out-braking overtake I have seen for while at the next corner in very challenging conditions??? Really sad to hear him being stripped of the win. I think Kimmi would hold his hands up and say that he was 'done' fair and square if he was honest about the situation. That will never happen as he will give the usual blah blah ferrari blah speech because he is paid employee. (The youtube clip clearly showed that he gained NO ADVANTAGE by cutting the corner)

If they uphold this, no one will want to push to overtake anyone as they will be scared of making a mistake and being unfairly punished.

I am not a Hamilton fan I am race fan and this is a very poor day for the sport that I love.

[euan]

Interesting analysis - LINK (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=TzKMyFCaZy0)

[C.Noble]

From what I've read, they claim he got the slipstream advantage - which is rubbish as Lewis was nowhere near the back of the Ferrari - Kimi was on the racing line going into the hairpin and moved over to block Lewis - that was fair game.

They say he gained unfair advantage - over who? Kimi didn't finish the race ;-)

As for the pitlane incidents - yes it did occur in the pits so I can accept a different penalty - though where is the standards that he got a 10 position grid demotion and Massa got a fine?

Matt - you say that at monaco it was a crash - yes it was but it was still an avoidable one had he braked. See Heiki yesterday for comparisions - racing incident, deliberate, or accident? - it's a fine line. Lewis avoided an accident as he got out of the way of Kimi, then let him back through. So why should he be punished for that?


Gonna throw a cat amoungst the pidgeons here... One could argue that all accidents are avoidable, Lewis could have avoided the incident in the pits in Canada by looking forward, Kimi could have avoided Sutil by stuffing it into the barriers, Massa could have avoided all of his by working as a burger flipper at Mcdonalds :smilewinkgrin:.

When you put a load of aggressive, competitive drivers in relatively equal cars, you are going to have accidents, these will always be someones fault, and ALWAYS avoidable. Unless there is serious misconduct i.e the old Senna "I am going to take you out to win the championship, I will even threaten to do it before I get in the car" trick, then I think they should go unpunished, at least not by the stewards, generally speaking, hot heads who take someone with them into the boonies once a fortnight, dont get long term contracts, yaughts, jets, supermodel girlfriends, lorryloads of vodka, etc. and therefore these people soon get weeded out.

As for unfair advantage by using run off areas, cutting chicanes, etc. This is the fault of track design and a sometimes over zelous approach to driver safety. I am all for driver safety, its 95% of my job! but these silly little "slow you down a wee bit" chicanes that are only marked out with slightly raised kerbing will be the first thing to be straight lined when your mirrors are filled with the hothead behind you, as for these "car park" sized tarmac run offs around the outside of corners (la source for example), the drivers are ALWAYS just going to see them as a handy extension of the racing line, to be used when needed, like "grasscrete", only better!

In my opinion, between the kerbs and the tarmac run offs, a distance that should be 3m of grass, there should be floppy markers that could never injure any driver, but certainly damage those fancy expensive front wings, and even more important underfloor diffuser, then wandering off line or straightlining a chicane will result in a visit to the pits, not for a drive thru, but a nosecone at best, retirement at worst. and if that dont work, tell the drivers 10% of the floppys are filled with concrete, but dont tell them where they are :smilewinkgrin:.

Rant over, fingers sore now, sorry for hogging the thread.

[Craig]

Interesting analysis - LINK (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=TzKMyFCaZy0)

very interesting as you say.... :eyes up:

McLaren will just have upset Bernie more and their appeal will not be won... :frown:

[euan]

I agree with you - all accidents are avoidable, but the FIA have made it difficult for themselves by trying to punish drivers for so called "avoidable" accidents.

Racing should be about racing, not about some bloke in an office watching it on TV who has never been in a F1 car deciding what is. Watch the footage of Villenuve and Arnoux at Spa in 79, they hit each other, what 4 times? in Au Rouge, and no punishment, it was close, fair racing.

[euan]

very interesting as you say.... :eyes up:

McLaren will just have upset Bernie more and their appeal will not be won... :frown:

If it's even heard - the FIA have to first decide if it's allowable to appeal a drive through. Think we know the answer to that one already.

[mini saltire]

Interesting analysis - LINK (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=TzKMyFCaZy0)

This is exactly how I saw it. 100% agree. Now if there was 10 Russian hookers in Nazi roll play at the side of the circuit perhaps that would have gone un punished...

The more I am researching this incident the more cross I am getting. Total mis justice!:argh::argh::argh::argh::argh:

[euan]

Yeah, I think they should get the head of the FIA and give him 50 lashes.

Oh, wait a sec...

[C.Noble]

Oh, just so we are clear, if any of my drivers are taken out at KH next weekend by some hot head, I will formally retract my statement about them going unpunished, but that is because I cant offer the long term contracts, yaughts, jets, supermodel girlfriends, lorryloads of vodka, etc.

Mr Dryden took them all.

[mini saltire]

:laugh:cool, just got my first death threat over my unbaised comment on youtube....

Oh well, I better wait while the 9 year old from Spain somes round to my door and 'kicks me till I am dead' :yawn::laugh:

[mini saltire]

Oh, just so we are clear, if any of my drivers are taken out at KH next weekend by some hot head, I will formally retract my statement about them going unpunished, but that is because I cant offer the long term contracts, yaughts, jets, supermodel girlfriends, lorryloads of vodka, etc.

Mr Dryden took them all.

:laugh::laugh:

[mini saltire]

:laugh:cool, just got my first death threat over my unbaised comment on youtube....

Oh well, I better wait while the 9 year old from Spain somes round to my door and 'kicks me till I am dead' :yawn::laugh:

Thats a pity... He has just been removed from youtube.... Oh well, I better get on with some work now that I have the rest of my life infront of me!:thumbs up:

[Gismo]

Oh and BS - sorry for spoiling the result for you!!No worries, am actually glad this debate is ongoing from all perspectives of the members :thumbs up:
Let's hope it stays that way :nag::Whistle:
Once i've seen the footage i'll be able to post my remarks :blush:

[Burple]

I've been waiting for something like this to post some thoughts..

TzKMyFCaZy0

I think this guy's got it pretty spot on to be fair!

Let the race result stand! :yes nod:

[Gismo]

Good find Ewan :thumbs up:
I'm a big Ferrari fan and i am happy that Hamilton won the race fair and square

[Crombers]

:D Mon the RED team

[The Dogfather]

Fair racing from both guys really, and TBH the best end to a GP in years so why alter the result afterwards?

[illegalhunter]

I dont think he has a hope with the appeal

[euan]

The longer this goes on the more I get annoyed about it. Have they even announced when the appeal will be heard yet?

I hope Hamilton wins in Italy this weekend.

[euan]

So the appeal is the 22nd September, why so long!!!

Conspiracy theory no:1
So they can see who is doing well in the championship and fix the championship again??

[Craig]

So the appeal is the 22nd September, why so long!!!

Conspiracy theory no:1
So they can see who is doing well in the championship and fix the championship again??

yeah, I did wonder why it is taking 2 weeks to get this dealt with.... :eyes up:

[eddie 44]

C,mon kimi... put the bumper in... :p

[Gismo]

Of course Ferrari could do the decent thing and say that the race was fair and that they don't want the race win and points :Whistle:

[mini saltire]

Of course Ferrari could do the decent thing and say that the race was fair and that they don't want the race win and points :Whistle:

Too much riding on it commercially sadly. :frown:

I'm sure there will be no controversy at the Minis this weekend!!:Whistle:

[monkimagic]

Hamilton was all sure to win last year and lost due to his inability to miss the pit entrance wall and other factors of course.

If he doesn't win this year at least he has an excuse now, he can blame the marchals.

I hope Kimi gets behind Massa and Massa beats Hamilton, not because I am a ferrari fan but it would shut James Allen and Martin Brundel up for another year.

[The Dogfather]

Well if the marshals hadn't interfered with the result he wouldn't have had an excuse but they did. Last year he was still a rookie, he made a few mistakes but still finished level on points with Kimi. The reason why people go on about him so much is because he's a real talent. Put him in the red car with all the favouritism that goes with it he'd be well on his way to a 2nd WDC in only his second season.

[Mini Ecosse]

Well if the marshals hadn't interfered with the result he wouldn't have had an excuse but they did. Last year he was still a rookie, he made a few mistakes but still finished level on points with Kimi. The reason why people go on about him so much is because he's a real talent. Put him in the red car with all the favouritism that goes with it he'd be well on his way to a 2nd WDC in only his second season.

Second that:thumbs up:
Stephen

[monkimagic]

I take it Hamilton can also blame the rain as well........

1. VETTEL Toro Rosso
2. KOVALAINEN McLaren
3. WEBBER Red Bull
4. BOURDAIS Toro Rosso
5. ROSBERG Williams
6. MASSA Ferrari
7. TRULLI Toyota
8. ALONSO Renault
9. GLOCK Toyota
10. HEIDFELD BMW
11. KUBICA BMW
12. FISICHELLA Force India
13. COULTHARD Red Bull
14. RAIKKONEN Ferrari
15. HAMILTON McLaren

16. BARRICHELLO Honda
17. PIQUET Renault
18. NAKAJIMA Williams
19. BUTTON Honda
20. SUTIL Force India

[tonyjac]

the only REAL talent there today was shumacher sitting in the RED cars corner....FORZA SCUDERIA FERRARI .must say kovalainen done well in the silver ferrari also:smilewinkgrin::D:thumbs up:

[The Dogfather]

I take it Hamilton can also blame the rain as well........

12. FISICHELLA Force India
13. COULTHARD Red Bull
14.RAIKKONEN Ferrari
15. HAMILTON McLaren



He doesn't need to, MM took a gamble as did Ferrari with Kimi hence the fact that he started only one place behind Kimi. Also, he's currently @ 14:20 in 7th place one position behind Massa who started in 6th.

You're starting to sound increasingly anti Hamilton.

[The Dogfather]

Let's be honest Ferrari have hardly got any 'Italian' blood in the team anyway. Driven by a Brazilian and Finn, development lead by a Greek and test driven by a German.

Edit: I missed the race but looking at the reports (not just the British press I hasten to add) Hamilton would have won the race had he switched to inters at his scheduled stop. He blew the rest of field away.

[tonyjac]

sorry dog but your point is??????????

[The Dogfather]

In relation to what?

[monkimagic]

I am not Anti Hamilton, he is a very good driver with lots of talent but there is better. I reckon Kubica and Kimi are better drivers.

However just because I am british it doesn’t mean I want to hear about Hamilton all the time, I expect commentators to be objective but this is not the case with ITV so I am looking forward to the BBC coverage.

I no longer watch a full race just the highlights as I cant stand 3 hrs of the Hamilton fan club, I have been watching F1 since the mid 80’s and up until last year I never missed a race but ½ way through last year I got sickened by James Allen and Martin Brundels continuous nonsense about Hamilton.

The boy is polite and considerate, he takes the time to mention others like he did with Sitell yesterday but he has no spirit. I like to see a bit of James Hunt in a driver. So for me its Kimi, he likes the girls and a party and he is the best in the field.

[The Dogfather]

Fair enough, I agree they do talk about hamilton quite a lot, however the majority of people watching ITV will be following Hamilton, after all he is British.

I disagree with you about Kimi being a better driver, Hamilton has shown a greater level of skill and car control than Kimi in the last two races. Rain is a great leveller, I think the Ferrari is quicker than the Mclaren but when its wet the driver has more influence than the car and in the last two races Hamilton has out performed Kimi by a large margin.

I don't often watch the race on ITV as the ad breaks pee me off, I usually listen to the Five Live coverage and watch the highlights on 'tape' later so I can FF the ads.

You don't get drivers like Hunt anymore they have to be more focussed to succeed, Hamilton IMO has spirit, he shows it on the track though. Kimi only won because Alonso failed to perform because he was too busy battling against his team mate. Kimi can out perform Hamilton but only at the bar after the race.

[euan]

Well, with any luck we won't have to listen to James Allen next season when the BBC takes over! I hope they keep Brundle though, he at least knows what is going on with the cars and has access to all his cronies (Berger for example).

Everyone has their favourite driver, but I do think that Hamilton has a lot of talent - look at the way he held the pass on Heidfeld (I think it was him anyway) yesterday with a massive slide when he booted it out of the chicane. Raikonnen is also very fast, but he had no confidence in the car in the wet and I think he (and particularly Massa) struggle without TC in the wet.

As for the other drivers, Alonso would be competing up there if Renault had a car, but I'll expect to see him in a BMW next year and beating on the door again. He is also superb in the wet.

Vettel played a blinder yesterday, but it's been coming as the car and driver have been there or thereabouts the last three races. So long as Red Bull give him a decent car next year he'll be a contender, but if I was him I'd have stayed at Toro Rosso!

Kubica is another good driver, good strategy yesterday better executed than Hamilton, he only started a couple of places higher up the grid but went to the right tyres at his stop and ended 3rd.

Exciting times for F1 drivers, shame the politics still ruin it. There is no way Hamilton will get his appeal, after the drivers briefing where the FIA said they need to wait till the next corner to pass if they cut a chicane - making it up as the go along!!!

[Gismo]

Even the majority of the drivers reckoned Hamilton's repass was not valid, so, no chance in any appeal methinks

[euan]

Even the majority of the drivers reckoned Hamilton's repass was not valid, so, no chance in any appeal methinks

The majority of drivers don't like Hamilton though.

The issue for me is still not if it was a valid pass or not (as everyone has a view on that and can argue till blue in the face), but the FIA punishment, inconsistent decisions and timings of those.

Personally, I think they should have 2 complete laps to decide if something needs punished and issue it within that timescale, after that it's too late and they have no power. If it's within 2 laps to the end of the race, fine the driver/team and a possible grid demotion at the next GP. Everything completed at the GP including appeals so you get this two week drag.

Or, radical time, have a penalty point system and when you get to a certain level you get a grid demotion at the next GP.

[dellie]

Well, with any luck we won't have to listen to James Allen next season when the BBC takes over! I hope they keep Brundle though, he at least knows what is going on with the cars and has access to all his cronies (Berger for example).

Everyone has their favourite driver, but I do think that Hamilton has a lot of talent - look at the way he held the pass on Heidfeld (I think it was him anyway) yesterday with a massive slide when he booted it out of the chicane. Raikonnen is also very fast, but he had no confidence in the car in the wet and I think he (and particularly Massa) struggle without TC in the wet.

As for the other drivers, Alonso would be competing up there if Renault had a car, but I'll expect to see him in a BMW next year and beating on the door again. He is also superb in the wet.

Vettel played a blinder yesterday, but it's been coming as the car and driver have been there or thereabouts the last three races. So long as Red Bull give him a decent car next year he'll be a contender, but if I was him I'd have stayed at Toro Rosso!

Kubica is another good driver, good strategy yesterday better executed than Hamilton, he only started a couple of places higher up the grid but went to the right tyres at his stop and ended 3rd.

Exciting times for F1 drivers, shame the politics still ruin it. There is no way Hamilton will get his appeal, after the drivers briefing where the FIA said they need to wait till the next corner to pass if they cut a chicane - making it up as the go along!!!

BBC is taking over - with no advert breaks its going to be a long race without toilet breaks if you dont have sky plus

[monkimagic]

Does anyone remember the 1998 British Granp prix, werer Schumacher was given a stop and go penalty 2 laps before the end of the race and was allowed as by the rules 3 laps to come in, Schumacher came in to serve the penalty at the end of the final lap and in doing so crossed the finish line (which extends across the pit lane) before reaching his pit box and before Mika Häkkinen crossed the finish line on the race track.

Now thats cheeky:cool:

[The Dogfather]

Cheeky/Cheating, I guess it depends on the colour of the car :p

[Gismo]

Nope, using the rules to your advantage, but, remember when Shuey took out Damon Hill in Aussie :Whistle:
Now that was nasty and no penalty meaning Shuey won another title :hand:

[The Dogfather]

Good point Alan, but technically didn't Hamilton use the rules but was pulled up by Mad Max's Goons, sory I mean stewards.

As for Schumacher, a great driver but a blatant cheat, but he drove the red car so he got away with it.

[mini saltire]

Loving Vettel's work on Sunday, what a legend!!! He's the man to watch, seems like a nice bloke too.:thumbs up::thumbs up:

Re Ferrari vs MacLaren... only one man wins in F1... Bernie Ecclestone:ragin:

[euan]

Loving Vettel's work on Sunday, what a legend!!! He's the man to watch, seems like a nice bloke too.:thumbs up::thumbs up:

Re Ferrari vs MacLaren... only one man wins in F1... Bernie Ecclestone:ragin:

So true, and he's loving it which is the really annoying thing!

[euan]

Well that's it then, McLaren cannot appeal a drive through, therefore they cannot appeal the time penalty.

Not a massive shock, but the FIA have stuffed up royally over this as the penalty should never have been given in the first place.

[euan]

LINK to the judgement. (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/court_appeal/judgments/Documents/ICA-23-09-08-McL-en.pdf)

My question - why the hell were Ferraru there giving evidence against McLaren!!!

[Craig]

ah well, wonder how long it will take McLaren to work out that they should just pull out and leave it to Bernie "Ferrari" Ecclestone to run it how he wants..

Sad day that fair play cannot win... :frown:

[monkimagic]

But it is fair, Hamilton broke a rule, the rule was there at the start of the race and it was broken, he got punished and thats that.....:shut up:

[zimbo]

Just when I thought F1 was getting Interesting and worth watching & this ridiculous judgement gets made despite the tact that Hamilton clearly did let kimi through before overtaking him legitimately by the next corner!!! What a load of crock!!! :ragin:think this weekends Singapore grand prix will be the last one I'll be watching... :frown:

[Gismo]

I just can't make up my mind if Hamilton did maintain his advantage or not, every time i see the video it appears, to me, that he does keep momentum and uses that to overtake, but, i just don't like the decision process.

McLaren always come out badly, so, now, Hamilton must just prove himself and win the F1 from here, no more mistakes :thumbs up:

[mini saltire]

Sadly, rules are rules and Championships even at Club level can end up in court over the most craziest of rulings. My take on it was; Lewis would had passed Kimmi anyway as he was way quicker than him, if not at that corner then at another. Kimmi didn't finish the race so therefore any advantage gained was wiped out. What we saw was ballsy driving being punished. Can you imagine Bernie as a child playing Scalectrix???:hand:

[euan]

On reflection, I have some things I just don't get.

1) Why was an appeal heard for Toro Rosso last year? They cannot argue that it was a valid appeal as "nobody challenged if it was legal", which is what they do in the outcome document.

2) Ferrari's involvement in this - challenging on technicalities (both were thrown out) just sounds like desperation.

3) The FIA clarifying the rule prior to the following GP - that just sounds like making the rules up as they go

4) I don't see the full justification for denying the appeal. They say you cannot appeal a drive through, but you can a time penalty. Well, a time penalty was what was applied, therefore surely you can appeal it - regardless of the source event? The justification for this isn't in the result document.

5) They took two days to decide, then charged McLaren with all the fees and travel for the two days. Sorry, this should have taken all of one day.

6) The FIA should watch the touring cars. The BTCC at the weekend was brilliant racing, and the stewards let them get on with it, even when some of it sailed a bit close to the wind.

In summary, I guess I feel that maybe he did get a benefit (though I can watch it over and over again and not come to a conclusion), but as has been said, he'd have won the race anyway by a mile. So it's all a bit petty to apply the penalty, regardless.

You just wonder if he could have got a 25 sec lead on Massa on the final lap, I'll need to watch it again as I still have the race on tape. Maybe, maybe not.

And have you seen what they have done to the cars for next season? Man, those new wings are ugly...

[euan]

For those who've not read it, this is classic FIA:

"The Court, in a judgment of 12 October 2007 rendered in the Toro Rosso case
concerning the 2007 Japanese Grand Prix (driver Vitantonio Liuzzi), concluded,
in similar circumstances, that the appeal against a decision to impose a 25-
second penalty was admissible. However, none of the parties concerned had
raised the inadmissibility of the appeal in that case, the FIA for its part leaving
the matter to the sovereign appreciation of the Court. Therefore, the Court was
able, in the conclusion of its decision, to declare the appeal admissible, but it did
not give reasons for its decision on the issue, as the question was not debated.
Consequently that judgment does not present itself as settled law with respect to
this question and does not bind the Court in the present case."

It's cr** like that which really winds me up.

[C.Noble]

For those who've not read it, this is classic FIA:

"The Court, in a judgment of 12 October 2007 rendered in the Toro Rosso case
concerning the 2007 Japanese Grand Prix (driver Vitantonio Liuzzi), concluded,
in similar circumstances, that the appeal against a decision to impose a 25-
second penalty was admissible. However, none of the parties concerned had
raised the inadmissibility of the appeal in that case, the FIA for its part leaving
the matter to the sovereign appreciation of the Court. Therefore, the Court was
able, in the conclusion of its decision, to declare the appeal admissible, but it did
not give reasons for its decision on the issue, as the question was not debated.
Consequently that judgment does not present itself as settled law with respect to
this question and does not bind the Court in the present case."

It's cr** like that which really winds me up.

Allow me to translate and edit out the legal jargon...

"Erm, because we really didnt give a toss about those insignificant teams and their silly squabbles, we forgot to actually check and see if their appeal was actually allowed, it wasnt, and we never noticed, so now we will kid on we knew and say it doesnt count as that case was not about nailing Ron Dennis like this one is.
We wont hear anymore on the matter :shut up:... Next!"

Hope this clears things up...