Strut brace query.

[SimonS]

Hi all,

I've been looking at various models of strut brace and there seems to be quite a variety of styles and materials.

One question that has come to mind..... when the strut is doing its job, is it under tension or compression or does it depend on the driving style/corner/day of the week etc?

[Gismo]

It'll see all manner of loads, basically, whatever the strut top mounts are doing will try and make the strut bar do the same.
But, the main purpose of the strut is to minimise all the movement, thus, holding the car rigid and more stable :)

[SimonS]

Cheers. I asked the question because I have seen a couple of designs that look as though they would be fine under tension but about as much use as a piece of spaghetti when compressed.

[Gismo]

I have the GTT one, precision stuff :thumbs up:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b71/Bonnie_Scotland/Black%20Cooper%20S/CloseUp.jpg

[AndyP & Lenore]

I have the GTT one, precision stuff :thumbs up:



But Simon has an R56. Do GTT do a strut for the R56 yet?

Simon, we have the JCW strut on our MINI. We put it on within a few days of getting the car, and to be honest I'm not sure it makes a blind bit of difference to our car. Not saying none of them make a difference, just saying that we didn't really notice a difference.:confused:

Keep meaning to take it off and give it a try without, to see if there's a difference.

A.

[Colin]

But Simon has an R56. Do GTT do a strut for the R56 yet?

Simon, we have the JCW strut on our MINI. We put it on within a few days of getting the car, and to be honest I'm not sure it makes a blind bit of difference to our car. Not saying none of them make a difference, just saying that we didn't really notice a difference.:confused:

Keep meaning to take it off and give it a try without, to see if there's a difference.

A.

Obviously not driving hard enough Andy :smilewinkgrin:

[MINI William]

ive got the JCW one on mine i noticed a diffrence when i first put it on but i dont notice it now.but to be onst with you its not a huge big diffrence

[FergusM]

But Simon has an R56. Do GTT do a strut for the R56 yet?

Simon, we have the JCW strut on our MINI. We put it on within a few days of getting the car, and to be honest I'm not sure it makes a blind bit of difference to our car. Not saying none of them make a difference, just saying that we didn't really notice a difference.:confused:

Keep meaning to take it off and give it a try without, to see if there's a difference.

A.

GTT dont do a R56 one...he gave up on his R56 and sold it to concentrate on the previous generation's car mods.

There is a nice looking "forge" one on ebay...not silly ££ http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Forge-BMW-R56-Mini-Polished-Alloy-Front-Strut-Brace_W0QQitemZ350028724884QQihZ022QQcategoryZ4019 2QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1 638Q2em118Q2el1247

Forge also do a "billet" one that looks more like the GTT item, but not seen anywhere that sells it.

[FergusM]

Just found the other http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=&product=FMSBR56CS

[KenL]

I am a skeptic!

I do not think a stiffening bar so far away from the wheels will many much (any?) difference?

Are there any mechanical/structural engineers on here? I would think it is possible to model the effects if you have the right knowledge & software package.

[SimonS]

I've found an interesting theory here (http://www.vectra-sport.com/forum/showthread.php?p=315684)

[Sweeney]

I am a skeptic!

I do not think a stiffening bar so far away from the wheels will many much (any?) difference?

Are there any mechanical/structural engineers on here? I would think it is possible to model the effects if you have the right knowledge & software package.

Strut braces have a considerable effect, i fitted an upper and lower to my cooper (totally rigid ones, not those with hinges), the car was much more solid and if im honest, it made worse the already harsh ride but it did corner much, MUCH better :smilewinkgrin:, lots more rattles made themself known though.
The minute i took them off for selling, the car was totally different from what i had gotten used to. Just seemed to flop about and certainly absorbed a lot more bumps etc from the road.

[vintageb3]

I have both an upper strut and lower strut on my convertible. Best mod ever done to the car.

Without them...the car handles like a pregnant duck. With them...a it handles like a go kart. The car digs into the corners rather than leaning...and turn in is quicker. I find the steering is more responsive as well...and feel that you can make tiny adjustments with the wheel to correct lines on corners. I have removed the top strut for "servicing' and forgotten that it wasn't on the car then hammered into corners that I'm used to. Halfway round the corner...i found out adrenaline was brown.:eek:

I do think the lower does more than the upper...but both together has my vote.

mark

[james@]

I am a skeptic!

I do not think a stiffening bar so far away from the wheels will many much (any?) difference?

Are there any mechanical/structural engineers on here? I would think it is possible to model the effects if you have the right knowledge & software package.

It's not so much anything to do with the wheels its more the points of the body shell of the car that take the load of the suspension i.e in this case its the strut tower top, its the same but smaller principle of a roll cage which is not just for safety but to stiffen the whole shell of the car.

Now obviously a full cage is not a practical consideration for a day to day car so the next best point of improvement is bracing the body shell in other places that are most affected but the loads induced under braking, acceleration and cornering.

If you look at the design of the body shell of the mini and the loads sent through the front end (the weight of the engine moving under acceleration, gear shift and barking the only bracing point the font of the car has is the engine mounts bracing top and bottom tightens the front end of the car to avoid the body flex that is the compromise of production car design.

You only have to look at the construction of the best handling cars (lotus elise/exige bonded alu tub chassis and mid engined removes all the weight from the front) pagani zonda total carbon fibre tub chassis no flex what so ever, porsche carrera GT same as the zonda (the stiffer the chassis the more effective the suspension.

[KenL]

Strut braces have a considerable effect, i fitted an upper and lower to my cooper (totally rigid ones, not those with hinges), the car was much more solid and if im honest, it made worse the already harsh ride but it did corner much, MUCH better :smilewinkgrin:, lots more rattles made themself known though.


A lower one, yes - it it would have been this that made the majority of the difference.

[james@]

A lower one, yes - it it would have been this that made the majority of the difference.

Not so upper and lower work together has always been the case will always be the case ;) as the mini is the case in point on this the sum is greater than the whole of its parts.

We know his having tested most braces on offer in the uk, the worst culprits being those with flexible joints on the top and with hollow tubing, milled alu or fixed (welded or bolted) solid bar type braces on top will always offer more than once with the capacity for any movement or flex.

it should also be noted that its not rely a good idea to run braces with runflats (imo), as they take a lot of 'give' out of the chassis the strengthened side walls will reduce this even further in an idea world they would be run on a car with adjustable dampers and slightly softer springs for fast road use.

[symo29]

Is this a waste of time for the Dooper?

I was thinking of getting one to try to stiffen the car a bit but not sure if its just a waste?

Obviously Cooper S with the speed is likely worth it......

[KenL]

I was thinking of getting one to try to stiffen the car a bit but not sure if its just a waste?

Is the car loose and sloppy at the moment?

[KenL]

James@ full on motorsport,

Do you sell these parts?

[symo29]

Sloppy.... erm its ok but sometimes i think it could be tighter but not sure

[james@]

depends on how you stiff you want, we are going to be selling the m7 system. For normal road driving we suggest fitting the top first and as your driving adapts to the change in response, fitting the lower a week later will give the full effect and make the difference clear

We tested the cooper S with soil upper and lower and then removed the lower while there was a difference (cornering grip suffered as a result) but the main benefits remain (massive increase in stability under braking, reduced tramlining - the effects of this depend on the weight of the wheels on the car, tested on 16's gave a better result than on s-spokes due to the un-sprung weight difference)

braces that allow for movement in their mountings through bolts (such as the jcw) will only work one way back and forth a soil state (GTT, M7, and to a lesser extent omp - due to its weaker construction) work in all directions, if you have a jcw and dont wish to change, adding the lower braces will offer a massive increase but we will have an upper brace for trial use buy customers

Having the chassis fully braced is not to everyones liking as it depends on how hard you drive (for normal road use the solid state top is enough, to begin with and as your driving adapts to the change in response, you may wish to upgrade)

For fast road and track the combination of upper and lower is to maintain the chassis under the higher cornering loads to maintain suspension's geometry without the need for a roll cage (front upper, front lower, mid, and rear in boot brace)

(for the R56 this is not yet released but im speaking to m7 tonite to find out a time frame on its release, and once i have that we will be offering a group buy once i finish the on-line shop next week)

[AndyP & Lenore]

..... and once i have that we will be offering a group buy once i finish the on-line shop next week.

Assuming you come on board as commercial sponsors, of course.:hand:

A.

[james@]

dont worry im only being very unsubtle about touting for business lol :smilewinkgrin:

but i was just answering KenL's question as to weather or not we sold them:thumbs up:
btw im just waiting for my very very slow bank to compete my new company account then i can sponsor :cool:

[SimonS]

Just to let everyone know that after what has been said here and research elswhere I have gone for the Forge strut.

It is good and solid and has no hinges. Dead easy to fit too.

http://gallery.mac.com/simon.a.smith/100055/IMG_7787/web.jpg
http://gallery.mac.com/simon.a.smith/100055/IMG_7788/web.jpg

[james@]

very nice bit of kit i rate forge very highly (commercial references removed - AndyP!!! ) :)

[FergusM]

Now that I like !

Did you get new bolts with it ? Re-use old ones ? Or go to mini for them ?

[james@]

ive been told its best to go for new bolts, im not sure if the oem ones are multi use or not but i rember the old R53 jcw brace came with new bolts that themselves were one use only (i think they may have changed this at some point thow)

[SimonS]

Nuts not bolts. I reused the originals together with some Loctite 603 which will hold it.

[james@]

oops yeah i blame a lack of moring caffine and talking to suppliers on the other side of the world last night hadent left me the sharpest tool in the shed this morning

[symo29]

I have just ordered a Forge Strut at £60 for my Dooper

its has a tension bolt in the middle with two locking Bolts. How tight do you make the bar just hand tight or more, and how do you guage it.

Any help would be great

Symo....

[james@]

I have just ordered a Forge Strut at £60 for my Dooper

its has a tension bolt in the middle with two locking Bolts. How tight do you make the bar just hand tight or more, and how do you guage it.

Any help would be great

Symo....

best email forge about that there usually very good at getting back quickly