20MPH zones...are they legal?

[vintageb3]

I was working at a house all last week...and it ran parallel with a BUSY main road with no houses on it.

It has recently been made a 20MPH limit. Its a bit ridiculous. A field on one side of the road...and 40' of grass on the other.

Each day this week...we have sat in the van at our break...and commented that none of the cars are doing 20MPH....most about 30MPH....but some 40MPH.

I met the home owner as he came home from work one day...and out of the blue he said "Don't worry about these 20MPH limits by the way...they are illegal. The local councils don't have the power to change speed limits...part of the process is to consult residents...and they never consulted anyone...the signs just went up."

He asked me if I had ever seen a speed camera being used on a 20 MPH limit?...I couldn't recall ever seeing one. He tells me I never will...because the police know any conviction would be thrown out of court.

The guy is a truck driver...ex army...and does seem to know his stuff...as he can recite the Highway code word for word...but I was wondering if anyone else had heard this?

hmmmm

mark

[Sweeney]

The fact that the signs are there means the law is in place. (If he knew the highway code and laws regarding the road that well he'd know just how signs/lack of signs affect what speed limit is set ;))

Regardless of his/anyones opinion, a lot of us come under certain impressions and scenarios which we feel the courts would throw out... You'd be surprised what convictions get put through.

Usually a 20MPH limit is a time activated zone, outside schools etc.

As for speed camera vans, they just pick spots they like sitting at for whatever reasons (close to a good burger van maybe? :o) they always sit in the same areas.

[The Dogfather]

The ones near schools I believe are legal, however the others are not. I'm off to find something to back this up, can't remember where I read it.

[vintageb3]

OK...to expand...he did go to a local community meeting...the local residents were armed with a lawyer...and it was put to the council that this 20MPH was not backed by law.

They couldn't answer the question.

That's why I'm asking if anyone else has heard this.

There is no school on the route Sweeney...there's NOTHING on the route.

The council has also put in islands. The idea was to slow traffic coming into the villages.

But...they put them on the wrong side for the road...so anyone coming out of the village doing "20mph"...have to stop to let the cars doing 70MPH past.:rolleyes:

This council will not accept they have put the islands on the wrong side for the road.

So...is this a guess from you Sweeney...or are you the Sweeney?:D

mark

[duncan]

I am of the understanding that the colour of the circle around the 20 is important.

If its a green band, its not legally enforcable, but if it is the normal red one, it is.

The estate my Mum and Dad live on have a 20 scheme, and I've been told through the council, that its not the legal limit.

Other areas may differ of course, as this is Dundee City Council I am refering to.

[vintageb3]

The ones near schools I believe are legal, however the others are not. I'm off to find something to back this up, can't remember where I read it.

Ah!...well I totally agree with the one outside schools.

I wished I had taken a picture of this road in question...I don't think anyone would believe its a 20MPH.

Interested to see what you come up with!

mark

[The Dogfather]

Duncan's right its something to do with the colour, green is advisory only. I not sure if its a Scotland only thing, haven't seen any down here.

[Craig]

the "twentys plenty" crap continues.

not enforceable by law....:rolleyes: ;)

more politicians trying to get a vote. I do not speed near a school which is where these were initially installed, which in my view is a very good idea. Anywhere else? well, I think is a waste of time. :( It seems that the motorist is the evil one, despite the fact that a pedestrian can walk out in front of a car without looking and it is the cars fault if we hit them....... go figure. :eek:

raise the speed limit on motorways to 80 in my view...:)

[vintageb3]

Duncan...I have seen these green signs too...but not in Fife mind you.

I think its actually a good thing to have 20MPH limits on certain roads...but the road I'm talking about used to be a 40MPH...with no kids playing near it.

mark

[Sweeney]

lol i gathered there wa sno school present :p it certainly isn't a guess.

It is possible the town were mean't to notified/called in for discussion and the coucil were negligent on that part (im not denying that shouldn't have happened) but as it stands, 20MPH limit signs are visible so 20mph limit is in place. As for the islands and traffic calming, thats just f***wits of road work contractors, again you'd be surprised what mishaps occur and just what they get away with. :D

Its a bit like the whole road marking rows you get all over as the people painting them were all too complacent with their work, yet a lot of double yellows etc are rendered null and void because of them :o

;)

If you bomb down there at 50mph, you really think telling the constabulary that the 20MPH is illegall they are going to drop the charges ;)

As for motorways, i agree the limits should be increased as well as dual carriageways, however you must be aware of the state of some A and M roads, 80mph in certain conditions would be suicide :D

[Craig]

I'll go and check on Monday if these are enforceable or not and if so in what circumstance (colour etc...) ;)

[vintageb3]

the "twentys plenty" crap continues.

not enforceable by law....:rolleyes: ;)

more politicians trying to get a vote. I do not speed near a school which is where these were initially installed, which in my view is a very good idea. Anywhere else? well, I think is a waste of time. :( It seems that the motorist is the evil one, despite the fact that a pedestrian can walk out in front of a car without looking and it is the cars fault if we hit them....... go figure. :eek:

raise the speed limit on motorways to 80 in my view...:)

Craig...I was hoping you were going to chip in...

"not enforceable by law....:rolleyes: ;)"

So the 20MPH zones are crap?....or is it your view that it is crap?

Sorry... can you be clear?

mark

[vintageb3]

I'll go and check on Monday if these are enforceable or not and if so in what circumstance (colour etc...) ;)

Good stuff!

mark

[Sweeney]

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#limits (http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#limits)

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#20 (http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#20)

If you check up on what colour the sign is, duncans right about the green thing... Red circles are a.... ? :o (Signs giving orders ;))

[vintageb3]

It is possible the town were mean't to notified/called in for discussion and the coucil were negligent on that part (im not denying that shouldn't have happened) but as it stands, 20MPH limit signs are visible so 20mph limit is in place. As for the islands and traffic calming, thats just f***wits of road work contractors, again you'd be surprised what mishaps occur and just what they get away with. :D

Every town on the coast has been hit with 20MPH limits and islands on the wrong side of the road...so its not a mishap...but I do agree that mistakes can be made mate



If you bomb down there at 50mph, you really think telling the constabulary that the 20MPH is illegall they are going to drop the charges ;)

No, I'm not thinking that for one second...but when I passed my test...a built-up-area used to be defined as any area that had street lighting...and that area had a national limit of 30MPH. So...if you are doing 29MPH in a 20MPH limit....I'm wondering if its legal or not. Of coarse 45 MPH would be illegal using that definition.


As for motorways, i agree the limits should be increased as well as dual carriageways, however you must be aware of the state of some A and M roads, 80mph in certain conditions would be suicide :D

I had to go to Livingstone last night during rush hour. The M8 was nose to tail....doing 10MPH between Newbridge and Livingstone.

I don't think a 80MPH limit is feasible these days...unless it was out with rush hour.

If they raise it to 80MPH....folks will just do 90MPH. As it is....doesn't everyone do 80MPH anyway?

mark

[Sweeney]

The street light rule is pretty complicated, in basic unless otherwise stated its 30mph, in this case its stated as 20MPH so its funnily enough 20MPH :p

LOL Well i can't comment on succesive arses of jobs being made but i wouldnt put it past some squads in todays "road management divisions". :D

As for the m8, dont get me started... I get stuck in nose to tail almost everytime im on it :(

[vintageb3]

when I passed my test...a built-up-area used to be defined as any area that had street lighting...and that area had a national limit of 30MPH. mark

Sorry...I think that the use of "national" was incorrect....I should have used nationwide...

National speed limit is 60MPH....unless in a van...then its 50MPH

mark

[Sweeney]

I wont get too technical but theres many national speed limits, depending on vehicle type, size and weights ;)

I knew what you meant though, the 20MPH limit is enforcable though. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/speedknowyourlimits
some more information, straight from the horses mouth as they say. ;)

[vintageb3]

I think there's only one national speed limit....but certain vehicles have their own limits

But I could be wrong...

mark

[Sweeney]

You knew what i meant :rolleyes: ive had a hard day! lol

[KenL]

National speed limit is 60MPH....unless in a van...then its 50MPH

Nobody is enforcing that, that is for sure :rolleyes:

[Sweeney]

Yes they are, once they hit a weight threshold they're legally required to have speed limiters fitted now ;)

[Sheilz]

Aberdeen Cooncil's really into this 20mph lark. The city centre, around every school and in the suburbs there's moves to widen the circle of 20 zones. They are all red rather than the experimental green signs that first appeared.
The city centre thing's a joke anyway. Anyone managing to get up to 20 deserves a reward. Just another waste of taxpayer's money.
Between that and the almost 24 hour a day parking wardens Aberdeen is fast becoming very unfriendly towards motorists.

[illegalhunter]

There a pain in the @SS

[vintageb3]

Nobody is enforcing that, that is for sure :rolleyes:

I agree Ken...thankfully...;) :eek: :D

mark

[AndyP & Lenore]

Gonna be the voice of (for the most part) opposition here.:o

I think the "Twenty's Plenty" idea is bang-on. The majority of places I've seen them are in suburban housing estates where there are kids out playing and dogs and cats running riot. I was delighted when the council put the green-circled 20 signs in our cul-de-sac. Imagine how pi**** I am now to find that it's not enforceable:rolleyes: . And I don't have kids - I have a MINI instead.;)

I know everyone agrees with them outside School's, and that's fine, but they have their uses in other area's too.

The flip side of the coin is I also think they chould increase motorway speed limits to 80...... So we can do 90 without being stung.;)

A.:D

[sedgie]

Hmmmm....Well i live in a village that has made it a 20 zone....but do they drive through there @ that!????:mad: :mad: :mad: noooooo!, it pisses me off BIG time!:mad: there is a village school next door to me and kids out playing , but they all drive throu here 50mph @ least!. One day some sad "boy racer" will hit a kid!:eek:
Bring on the 20mph in towns/villages!!!!!:D :D

[The Dogfather]

I'm all for lower speed limits in residential areas, however why not try enforcing the 30 B4 dropping to 20. I'm sick of the boyracers charging through our village at 50 - 60.

[Scottie]

well, I think is a waste of time. :( It seems that the motorist is the evil one, despite the fact that a pedestrian can walk out in front of a car without looking and it is the cars fault if we hit them....... go figure. :eek:

raise the speed limit on motorways to 80 in my view...:)

I always thought as long as you were driving within the law and under the speed limit. If a person came out in front of you and you had no time to stop or avoid you couldn't be charged.

[Gismo]

I passed my bike test in Aberdeen and there were loads of 20 mph "zones" i would have failed my test if i had not adhered to the sign ;)
Not saying they are right or wrong, just that for my test i had to abide by them.

[s12cot]

I always thought as long as you were driving within the law and under the speed limit. If a person came out in front of you and you had no time to stop or avoid you couldn't be charged.


No so sure on that, think they can charge for careless driving?? All depends on your speed and road conditions, I think the systems is set up fairly strongly against the driver??

[N12 JLK]

We moved to a quiet cul-de-sac as we were always afraid when Kerr went out to play in our estate, it is a 20 mph zone but all the idiots kept flying passed the house , when I cleaned the car and they flew passed they always knew my displeasure. I know that Kerr is very clever and knows the rules of the road but with all the cars that park on the roads/pavements and not on their drives makes it even harder for children to play and be road safe.
20's plenty in built up area's but bring it on on the open roads.

[Goldminione]

On my way to Lennoxtown you come through villages. The speeds change quite dramatically, 60s open road, then all of a sudden a 40 for a small village reach kilsyth and its 30 Even some of the open roads are 40s. Linlithgows 20 through the town which i think is fair their and beside schools.

Alan

[Sheilz]

Think the police do take circumstances into consideration when a pedestrian is knocked down. A few years back a drunk fell off the pavement in front of my car in Aberdeen. I wasn't charged as there were too many witnesses about who told the police that I hadn't been speeding and there had been no indication that this guy was about to topple over into my path. Got the fright of my life especially when I got home and found his earphones wrapped around my front bumper. I did get the bill for the ambulance though which I sent back and advised to be redirected to the drunk who fortunately was unhurt. Much later i was able to half laugh at this guy falling in front of me without buckling over, a bit like the housekeeper in Father Ted when she falls off the window ledge. Still, its not an experience I'd care to repeat.

[korky]

How about the time-limited 20mph zones for schools? If they're normally 30mph, but 20mph when the lights flash, can you speed up to 30mph when it next says 30mph on the road, or is it 20mph for the entire 30mph zone? Can't find info on that anywhere!

[AndyP & Lenore]

How about the time-limited 20mph zones for schools? If they're normally 30mph, but 20mph when the lights flash, can you speed up to 30mph when it next says 30mph on the road, or is it 20mph for the entire 30mph zone? Can't find info on that anywhere!

Just after the 20mph zone has been passed (past the School or whatever was giving rise to the temporary Zone), you will find a small "30" sign. This tells you, you are back into the 30 zone.

A.;)

[Julz]

Thought I better pipe up here seeing as I'm a roads engineer who speant two years working in local government roads traffic department and accident investigation!

Duncan, as was seconded, is right. Red circles is legal, green circles are recommendations. As for the locals being notified, what do they matter!!;) :D Basically, the consultation for such a change is huuuuge, local community, council, police, public etc.... are all involved but there has to be a justified arguement. Schools need no justification but for ridiculous places there has to be evidence as to support the arguement. Generally this can involve a few months of irregular speed testing, half of it you never know about, ie me sitting in my car with a speed tester, the rest you do, ie the minute-man double rubber pipes across the road!! Going by what you're saying here, it sounds to me like somebody made an @rse and did the traffic calming on the wrong drawing, on the contractors traffic calmed the wrong location, it does happen and no-one owns up!!!

As for the double yellow line comment elsewhere that I can't remember, a double yellow line is only legally enforceable if it is associated with the correct road sign!!;) :D

The end.... I'm fed up now and have a road to design..... :rolleyes: :p

[The Dogfather]

The end.... I'm fed up now and have a road to design..... :rolleyes: :p

make it a twisty one:D

[Julz]

make it a twisty one:D

Oh don't worry, it is:mad: !! Twisty roads are seen as better for traffic calming:eek: :eek: :(

[Gismo]

As for the double yellow line comment elsewhere that I can't remember, a double yellow line is only legally enforceable if it is associated with the correct road sign!!;) :D
And it also must end with a line directly towards the kerb and cover both ends of the yellow lines :rolleyes: :D :p