Young Drivers Curfew

[Bazthemod]

Had to have a wee rant after hearing this on the radio all day.


Under new proposals, drivers under 25 will not be allowed to drive at night and only carry limited number of passengers.

Why is it that we all get tarred with the same brush as the burberry capped brigade:mad: I work bloody hard for my car and the boy racers round here piss me off as much as it pisses off the over 25 drivers, so why treat me any different?

Would should innocent motorists have to pay yet again for the minority's stupid antics and if the proposals come into effect, will our insurance go down???? haha dream on


Anyway that will be all :cool: rant over

[Scottie]

well I am sorry but I agree with this and hope they bring it in. Not only that I think they should raise the age of being able to drive to 21.

On a plus note they could soften the blow by lowering your insurance slightly.

I also think they should bring back national service:D

[bigcoyote]

Several States here have laws like that --- drivers under 18 can only drive untill 7 or 8 pm ( unless work related ) and only with a limited number of people in the car. Also if your grades drop below a certain level they can suspend your license ( if you are in school ). Lots of variations - some work better than others.


I would like to see the same laws for drivers OVER 60 or 65 -- they scare me sometimes!!!:eek:

[RyanK]

Completely aggree with Baz on this one.

I am 17 and I feel the same way about Baz with regards to being treated like a Boy-Racer. I work hard for my car like everyone else and don't welly it about the streets like a tube!

I got pulled the other night regarding my Halo Lights "Fully E-marked" & have received 3 points for my tinted windows (in which came with the car!). We are all being tarred with the same brush and its bloody ridiculous!

Like baz...Rant over. I have spent the 3 months that I have been passed my test questioning myself about how im being picked on, don't want to work myself up too much haha.

Ryan

[stoney]

Had to have a wee rant after hearing this on the radio all day.


Under new proposals, drivers under 25 will not be allowed to drive at night and only carry limited number of passengers.

Why is it that we all get tarred with the same brush as the burberry capped brigade:mad: I work bloody hard for my car and the boy racers round here piss me off as much as it pisses off the over 25 drivers, so why treat me any different?

Would should innocent motorists have to pay yet again for the minority's stupid antics and if the proposals come into effect, will our insurance go down???? haha dream on


Anyway that will be all :cool: rant over

i agree with you i think it is unfair that under 25 should not be allowed out at night and limted passagens u can only carry 3 in a mini so no prob there :D


well I am sorry but I agree with this and hope they bring it in. Not only that I think they should raise the age of being able to drive to 21.

On a plus note they could soften the blow by lowering your insurance slightly.

I also think they should bring back national service:D

the way i see it is fair enuf rasie the age to drive to 21 what happens 2 all the 17 18 19 20 year old that have one all ready :p

i think the best idea for new drivers is restict the engine size for the fist year to some thing like a 1.3 or below then for the 2nd year be allowed to move up say some thing like 1.8 or below non turbo then after that then they can have what they want as long as they have keeped a clean licance

and also think there should be a total ban on drinking and driving not even a sip !!!!!!!!! for every one that would cut a lot of the car crash that dose happen !!!

[Scottie]

actually it be better for under 25's not to be allowed out of the house after 7pm never mind to drive a car.:D

remember I was young once but now "I am not young enough to know everything"

[Scottie]

the thing is when I was 17 I could not no way afford a car like what alot of young ones run about in today.

On a wage of £30 a week my insurance on a P reg yes a SMS 835P reg was £400 which was a years wage.

[The Dogfather]

Its unfortunate that you're being tarred with same brush, but unfortunately the situation has got out of hand.

Perhaps all new drivers cars should be fitted with a GPS tracking device which monitors their speed, soon as they speed they are prosecuted for it. Those who persistently offend will soon lose their licence, the technology is already here.........

[RyanK]

As long as you dont think our cars are paid for by daddy lol...

saved up since paper rounds for a decent car

I agree that there are a large minority of young drivers out there in which are idiots though, the amount of young people being killed nowadays scares me.

[Bazthemod]

How can you say that it is the right thing to do?

If it was the other way about you oldies would be raging just as much.

Ryan raises a fair point about people our age having nice cars... its not all mummy and daddies money some of us have our heads screwed on and deserve to have nice things yet the minority to ruin it for us :mad::mad::mad:

Fair enough if the police pull people over for a legit reason then put this curfew etc into force on the individual...but its simply unfair to treat us all like numpties:mad:

I have spent over £9,000 on my car now and i dont intend on stopping i also own a classic mini that eats money aswell... i love my cars and drive them in an appropriate manner ... i am also t-total and use my car often to pick my parents up in a drunken state... why should i be punished??

Yes i realise there are idiots out there... one of which was my best m8 who was killed in his car... i openly admit he was an idiot that night and he would too.... nothing sobers you up to speeding / arsing around more than that.

[Scottie]

How can you say that it is the right thing to do?

If it was the other way about you oldies would be raging just as much.

Ryan raises a fair point about people our age having nice cars... its not all mummy and daddies money some of us have our heads screwed on and deserve to have nice things yet the minority to ruin it for us :mad::mad::mad:

Fair enough if the police pull people over for a legit reason then put this curfew etc into force on the individual...but its simply unfair to treat us all like numpties:mad:

I have spent over £9,000 on my car now and i dont intend on stopping i also own a classic mini that eats money aswell... i love my cars and drive them in an appropriate manner ... i am also t-total and use my car often to pick my parents up in a drunken state... why should i be punished??

Yes i realise there are idiots out there... one of which was my best m8 who was killed in his car... i openly admit he was an idiot that night and he would too.... nothing sobers you up to speeding / arsing around more than that.

well that's life I'm afraid :D

and the older;) you get the more you will realise the sh1te us oldies have had to put with decimalisation, computers, poll tax and so on and so on.:p but you see all the youngster tar us all with the same brush we are all old farts it is just not fair.:D :p

[sh@z]

the thing is when I was 17 I could not no way afford a car like what alot of young ones run about in today.

On a wage of £30 a week my insurance on a P reg yes a SMS 835P reg was £400 which was a years wage.

Must have been a while since the weekly wage was £30? If someone works hard enough to earn a decent wage, buy their car, run it, and have sat a test and have a license like everybody (most folk) else on the road then why should the fact they are under 25 remove them of that right? With that same thought process, everyone over 50 should be retested.. right? As the older you get, the slower your reactions get, the worse your eyesight gets, etc.

What is it that makes EVERY under 25 year old a problem on the road to justify thinking about bringing this in?

There are idiots in every age bracket, not just under 25s. I'd say something like a retest 3 years after passing, and once you're over 50/60/whatever would be more 'appropriate', but then you old farts would kick up a fuss wouldn't you.

AAAANNNNDDD, the assumption you old farts make that our cars are paid by mommy and daddy via a silver spoon defo needs to go.

[Bazthemod]

well that's life I'm afraid :D

and the older;) you get the more you will realise the sh1te us oldies have had to put with decimalisation, computers, poll tax and so on and so on.:p but you see all the youngster tar us all with the same brush we are all old farts it is just not fair.:D :p


You know how we feel now regards 'tarring' its not nice ;)

[AndyP & Lenore]

<<<Dives in and goes for broke....;)

This is from a BBC news page on this story: "Figures published by Acpos (association of chief police officers Scotland) showed a 30% rise in the number of under-25s killed this year. "

So let's turn this on it's head.

Baz, Ryan, Shaz.... as young drivers, what would you guys suggest would be the best way to stop your friends killing themselves (and taking other innocent people with them)?:confused:

I'm not saying I agree with everything in the proposals. And that's not because I don't think something needs to be done, 'cos I do. But I'm not convinced the GDL scheme would work, 'cos as soon as kids hit the upper age and they get full use of their licence, they'll still be young and relatively inexperienced drivers.

A.:(

[Gismo]

There is no substitute for experience, whilst i don't personally agree with the curfew directed solely at the under 25's i still think something has to be done, as Andy showed by the latest figures.

To have mandatory resits every 3 years is not practicable, given that the waiting list for new drivers tests is around 5 weeks as it is, to retest the entire UK isn't feasable at all.

I'm with you guys, Baz and Ryan and anyone else, but, i don't have the answer, you guys show responsibility that is very much the minority.
In each piece of government legislation someone always suffers.

I'm not so sure the subject being discussed here will ever be approved anyway.

You just need to look at the post by Fi regarding the Lotus for the way the majority of the yoof of today conduct themselves :(

[euan]

I do think something needs to be done, this seems a bit harsh but then also consider how it could be enforced, and it'll never happen.

The idiots who drive and cause accidents have also been known to drive without insurance, and without a license, and (in some cases) without owning the car! So is banning them after 7pm going to stop them? Doubt it.
I'm against the whole GPS thing in the car, mainly as I don't trust the people in charge to use it correctly. However, is there a case for it to be in cars for recently passed drivers, if your haring about everywhere and driving in known "boy racer" areas, what would be wrong with a quiet word to say - "look, we know how your driving, have a look at this video of what statically will happen, next time we'll give you points". More likely to make you think than a flash of a camera?

I also think the driving age should go up to 18 - there are some people who have the ability to realise what their actions mean at 17, but there are also a lot of idiots. Looking back, while I was glad to have my license at 17, it wouldn't have been that much hardship to wait a year.

[Burple]

well I am sorry but I agree with this and hope they bring it in. Not only that I think they should raise the age of being able to drive to 21.

On a plus note they could soften the blow by lowering your insurance slightly.

I also think they should bring back national service:D


Well in the same vein, the government should also ban anyone from driving huge 4x4s completely, unless you can prove that you can justify that you have to use it the way it was intended, ie you work on a farm or tow livestock for a living. You should also sit an extra test to prove you know how to and CAN drive it properly with proper consideration to other road users..
(judging the way I've seen most people driving them out on the country roads here, if the weather is going to be bad enough for them to need 4x4, they're just going to drive it straight into a ditch anyway, so why bother).

And as for caravans!! Ban them. Completely. End of. If you need a holiday in the country, buy a tent (and save the environment from all the extra pollutants put out by cars struggling to pull the extra weight) or book a hotel and support the declining tourist industry in the country..

;)
For the youngsters tho, I toally agree with Stoney.. Limit engine size for the first few years, then if your licence is still clean, you can move up to real cars. This however is far too simple and sensible for the government in this country to apply tho, they'd much rather screw everyone over with stupid rules that of course won't ever have to apply to themselves... :mad:

[Bazthemod]

Baz, Ryan, Shaz.... as young drivers, what would you guys suggest would be the best way to stop your friends killing themselves (and taking other innocent people with them)?:confused:
A.:(

I learnt by seeing my m8s car leave the road ... it sounds morbid but thats the best way to learn however i hope nobody ever experiences that. Thing is i was never a stupid driver to begin with, yes i go over the speed limit now and again but my driving style isn't any different from my mum and dad's ... if anything im better because i check mirrors and know the latest rules of the highway code... i have pointed out numerous things to my mum and dad that they didn't know and my dad used to be a long distance HGV driver!!!

I think that if the police have to stop idiots in cars THEN put these actions into place REGARDLESS OF AGE. A curfew at night however just moves the problems to other times in the day ie closer to rush hours ... its stupid idea.

Yes under 25's are notorious for 'killing themselves' and commiting crime but why not punish the MINORITY, because it is the minority out of my group of friends anyway, once they have committed a crime punish them instead of a blanket punishment.

(this has livened up the forum:p)

[Gismo]

Yes under 25's are notorious for 'killing themselves' and commiting crime but why not punish the MINORITY, because it is the minority out of my group of friends anyway, once they have committed a crime punish them instead of a blanket punishment.

Using your thinking, how do you single out the minority, how do you know who, under the age of 25 are actually the "minority" until they actually commit a serious offence.
Very difficult, there is already a system in place, the legal system should take care of the minority, being caught doing wrong should bring the culprit to court wherby they should be dealt with accordingly, however, this does not happen due to many stupid reasons.

I can understand the governments stance, but, in all honesty i doubt it could be enforced, but to try and eliminate a certain element of a particular age group is also very near impossible

[Burple]

Yes under 25's are notorious for 'killing themselves' and commiting crime but why not punish the MINORITY, because it is the minority out of my group of friends anyway, once they have committed a crime punish them instead of a blanket punishment.

(this has livened up the forum:p)

That of course, would be the ideal solution, but the government and police force in this country just doesn't work like that. That would mean they have to actually *do* the work they should be doing. A minority of people cause enough problems to be noticed, so it gets ruined for everybody. That's the way this stupid nanny state works..

It sounds harsh, but think of the current way that people end up 'removing' themselves from the road as Natural Selection...

[AndyP & Lenore]

Well in the same vein, the government should also ban anyone from driving huge 4x4s completely, unless you can prove that you can justify that you have to use it the way it was intended, ie you work on a farm or tow livestock for a living. You should also sit an extra test to prove you know how to and CAN drive it properly with proper consideration to other road users..

And as for caravans!! Ban them. Completely. End of. If you need a holiday in the country, buy a tent (and save the environment from all the extra pollutants put out by cars struggling to pull the extra weight) or book a hotel and support the declining tourist industry in the country..




That of course, would be the ideal solution, but the government and police force in this country just doesn't work like that. That would mean they have to actually *do* the work they should be doing. A minority of people cause enough problems to be noticed, so it gets ruined for everybody. That's the way this stupid nanny state works..
It sounds harsh, but think of the current way that people end up 'removing' themselves from the road as Natural Selection...


Cough-doublestandards-cough.:p

[AndyP & Lenore]

I learnt by seeing my m8s car leave the road ... it sounds morbid but thats the best way to learn however i hope nobody ever experiences that. Thing is i was never a stupid driver to begin with, yes i go over the speed limit now and again but my driving style isn't any different from my mum and dad's ... if anything im better because i check mirrors and know the latest rules of the highway code... i have pointed out numerous things to my mum and dad that they didn't know and my dad used to be a long distance HGV driver!!!

I think that if the police have to stop idiots in cars THEN put these actions into place REGARDLESS OF AGE. A curfew at night however just moves the problems to other times in the day ie closer to rush hours ... its stupid idea.

Yes under 25's are notorious for 'killing themselves' and commiting crime but why not punish the MINORITY, because it is the minority out of my group of friends anyway, once they have committed a crime punish them instead of a blanket punishment.

(this has livened up the forum:p)


Baz TBH, doesn't really answer my question.

I think I'm right in saying that for the first two years after passing your test if you accrue 6 or more penalty points, your licence is taken off you, you have to resit the theory and practical to get it back. Inevitably, going by what BS says, this is going to be a 5 to 10 week process.

Perhaps they should tighten up on those rules. If you hit 3 points in the first 5 years your licence is withdrawn for 6 months, then a retest process could come in to play. Seems strict, but these 17 year old's should then think very carefully about the way they drive if they realise they realise it's a ONE strike rule.

I think the biggest problem with the 6 points within 2 years issue, is the mindset "Ach, it's ok, the worst that will happen is I'll get 3 points then I'll make sure I'm more careful".

Also agree with those advocating a change to a minimum age of 18.;)

All IMHO.

A.:D

[korky]

Isn't a motorbike licence restricted to a low-powered bike for a couple of years if you're under 21? Always seemed like a good idea to me.

As for the cars 'youngsters' :D can afford these days, any economists out there know if the relative cost of car ownership has fallen over the last, say, 20 years? When I was a teenager (we're talking late '80's here, not pre-war!), anyone I knew of my age who could afford to run a car was permanently in demand to give lifts, help with house moves and so on. Near celebrity status. Now every ned (present company not necessarily included in that slur) seems to run a car.

And my first weekly wage was around £50, so £30 was probably not so long ago, either! Similar job now would get you nearly £200, I think.

[Gismo]

Isn't a motorbike licence restricted to a low-powered bike for a couple of years if you're under 21? Always seemed like a good idea to me
Yep, 33 BHP for 2 years, plus, there is a power to weight ratio as well, so, not just any bike can be restricted/used.

[euan]

Baz TBH, doesn't really answer my question.

I think I'm right in saying that for the first two years after passing your test if you accrue 6 or more penalty points, your licence is taken off you, you have to resit the theory and practical to get it back. Inevitably, going by what BS says, this is going to be a 5 to 10 week process.

Perhaps they should tighten up on those rules. If you hit 3 points in the first 5 years your licence is withdrawn for 6 months, then a retest process could come in to play. Seems strict, but these 17 year old's should then think very carefully about the way they drive if they realise they realise it's a ONE strike rule.

I think the biggest problem with the 6 points within 2 years issue, is the mindset "Ach, it's ok, the worst that will happen is I'll get 3 points then I'll make sure I'm more careful".

Also agree with those advocating a change to a minimum age of 18.;)

All IMHO.

A.:D

Your right about the probation period - my mate got done by two scameras and has had to start again (both on the A90, quiet, good weather, and nothing too fast - still speeding though!).

I like the limit on HP idea, same as motorbikes. Needs to be tamperproof (biometrics anyone?) and perhaps these new drink monitors that won't start the car with any alcohol on the breath.

Tie that in with the probation period and perhaps a it'll work - train the idiots who spoil it for the rest into a pattern of behaviour.

It's harsh on everyone else who is a law abiding citizen, and behaves themselves at 17/18, but if it makes the roads safer then it's a worthy proposal.

[monkimagic]

The test is system is rubbish, if I can remember the focus when I took my test was on 3 point turns and how far from the curb you are while reversing into a side road....really does this matter? i spent about 5% of my practice and test (rough estimate) on the open road and that was dual carriage way.

That is not preparing some one for the real open road where driving skill and road craft matter.

The emergency stop was at 20mph, I knew when the instuctor was about to hit the dash as he looked in his mirror. It dont work like that on an a road at 60mph.

All lessons and tests are done in day light, your examaniner will offer additional instruction but who takes that up.

Like everyone else I was off, however my 1st real drive was in my brothers Mark2 escort Ghia with 4 different wheels, 3 door colours and ripped vynl roof.

[Scottie]

Well in the same vein, the government should also ban anyone from driving huge 4x4s completely, unless you can prove that you can justify that you have to use it the way it was intended, ie you work on a farm or tow livestock for a living. You should also sit an extra test to prove you know how to and CAN drive it properly with proper consideration to other road users..
(judging the way I've seen most people driving them out on the country roads here, if the weather is going to be bad enough for them to need 4x4, they're just going to drive it straight into a ditch anyway, so why bother).

And as for caravans!! Ban them. Completely. End of. If you need a holiday in the country, buy a tent (and save the environment from all the extra pollutants put out by cars struggling to pull the extra weight) or book a hotel and support the declining tourist industry in the country..


good job I take my refresher IAM course in my big HUGE 4X4 then:D

if you have a big HUGE 4x4 then you don't struggle to tow the caravan so no extra pollutants however a wee car over loaded with tents and extra's driving to the site.;)

[monkimagic]

Bike acceleration is another world in comparison to Cars

Yamaha R1
Speed: Over 185 mphAcceleration: 0-60 in under 2.2 seconds standing quarter mile under 10.5 seconds at over 140 mph,


Kawasaki Z1000
Speed: Over 170 mphAcceleration: 0-60 in under 2.5 seconds standing quarter mile under 11.5 seconds at over 130 mph

I dont think there is the same urgency but classes in tasteful modding would help.

http://www.lum.co.uk/SA/betty39.jpg

[Scottie]

my £30 a week job was in 1979.

not so easy then to afford a car however petrol was a lot cheaper.

my comments about be able to run about in a nice car at a young age was nothing to do with whether your mum and dad helped you out. It was more a case of trying to show that youngsters to day are more able to afford to nicer cars than back in my day.

[euan]

my £30 a week job was in 1979.

not so easy then to afford a car however petrol was a lot cheaper.

my comments about be able to run about in a nice car at a young age was nothing to do with whether your mum and dad helped you out. It was more a case of trying to show that youngsters to day are more able to afford to nicer cars than back in my day.

That's true, in my day (not that long ago!!) we spent our money on XR2s, for the same money now you can get Scoobys which can be tweaked up to serious levels for next to nothing!

[Burple]

Cough-doublestandards-cough.:p

So is saying there should be lots tougher criteria for today's youngsters to get on the roads compared to the joke of a test that many of us had to sit in the past... no?


Hey, my opinion is my own :p:D
I see caravans as an obstruction and a danger on the roads, a relic of the 50s which should have long ago become extinct.. :p
If you're going on holiday to get away, why on earth would you want to take half your house with you?

Don't either of you feel any pangs of guilt for the environment either by towing these monstrosities with their huge spewing engines, or having a long queue of traffic running at far from their most efficient behind you? Or the fact that you're actually causing tailbacks?
And if you say you're driving fast enough not to cause tailbacks, then you're probably breaking the law by driving too fast to be towing... :p;)

[Burple]

good job I take my refresher IAM course in my big HUGE 4X4 then:D

if you have a big HUGE 4x4 then you don't struggle to tow the caravan so no extra pollutants however a wee car over loaded with tents and extra's driving to the site.;)


But you DO squirt out more crap from a big 4x4 with a huge engine tho... diesel or not...
Never had my car overfilled when going camping.. tent + beer. that's the necessities :p:p:D

IAM courses for 4x4 drivers should be compulsory in my opinion.. especially a part about courtesy for other road users. :D

[monkimagic]

I am with LnL, too many times have I been stuck behind a selfish caravaner to be tolerant.

Caravan curfew.


Crapavans should only be towed on a public road between 2am-5am.
Crapavans should be towed at or close to the speed limit. if this is not safe to do so....dont take it out it serves no purpose..really it services no useful purpose.
Crapavans should only be used when there are 4 or more people in the offending vehicle
Crapavans should have only one singular destination

[Bazthemod]

Andy i did answer your question in a personal situation to me but i think the 3 points one strike than you are banned for 6 months would be successful as this doesnt discriminate the law abiding drivers on the road.

I know for sure if that was in force even i would watch my speed and road behaviour. However why just stop at drivers aged 17-25 make that the rule accross the board. The the drivers i have the most road rage at are around the ages of 60+ that dont have a clue what they are doing.

Can agree with points on caravans but as long as the drivers are switched on and pull over when traffic builds i dont see the problem. I can understand that most caravaners are switched on and i for one wont tar all caravaners with the same brush ... maybe others can learn this lesson... we aint all the stereotype! :cool:

[RyanK]

Seems like this has gone a tad out of hand!

All we were pointing accross is the fact that we youngsters feel we are all being tarred with the same brush...and that most of us are actually sensible. Come on i have 3 points for tinted windows that came with the car from bmw! They were only 0.2% under the allowed percentage!

I will admit though that my car for being 17 is hellishly fast with the bluefin installed...however i have been driving for around 8 years (off road field driving) so I feel i have a bit more sense than some.

Half of the youngsters cars in which are being totalled are usually citreon saxos with 18" wheels etc. I bought the Mini knowing it was a 'good handler' and relatively safe. But then again this is not about crashing its about the curfew.

I feel the police do have the right to stop us youngsters from time to time, but when im out in my car down at the aberdeen beach watching random checks occuring all of the time...this is when it gets out of hand.

To be honest...this law probably wont even go into place. There will be too many arguments against it...as displayed throughout this thread.

Anyway thats my part, and i personally dont want my points screaming back at me

Ryan

[RyanK]

Also would like to say that Stone has a fair point about the engine size idea

[Burple]

Can agree with points on caravans but as long as the drivers are switched on and pull over when traffic builds i dont see the problem. I can understand that most caravaners are switched on and i for one wont tar all caravaners with the same brush ... maybe others can learn this lesson... we aint all the stereotype! :cool:

Jeez, where have you been driving? ;):D Most caravanners I've seen recently are too concerned in petting the stupid little yappy dog that's boucing between the dashboard, passenger seat and rear parcel shelf to worry about silly annoyances like other road users... :rolleyes:

I think as far as the young people thing goes, membership of clubs like this one should be an incentive to lower insurance premiums as well.

[Burple]

All we were pointing accross is the fact that we youngsters feel we are all being tarred with the same brush...and that most of us are actually sensible. Come on i have 3 points for tinted windows that came with the car from bmw!


...but when im out in my car down at the aberdeen beach watching random checks occuring all of the time...this is when it gets out of hand.


Ryan

Ok.. this isn't for the sake of an argument, but if you're hanging about in your car at a very well known (to the Police) spot, where a lot of bother has happened before, and your car has, in effect, an illegal modification... then you can hardly complain when you get stopped for a random check and get slapped for 3 points..

It's not like there hasn't been a lot of discussion round these parts in the recent past about the legality (or lack thereof) of tinted front windows..:D

[RyanK]

Ok.. this isn't for the sake of an argument, but if you're hanging about in your car at a very well known (to the Police) spot, where a lot of bother has happened before, and your car has, in effect, an illegal modification... then you can hardly complain when you get stopped for a random check and get slapped for 3 points..

It's not like there hasn't been a lot of discussion round these parts in the recent past about the legality (or lack thereof) of tinted front windows..:D

You do have a point here i know, not going to argue against it. Thats why i don't head down the beach anymore. Too much bother with the police who have nothing better to do :P

I never knew anything about window tints being illegal due to sitting my driving test in the car...the car passing an MOT, and being sold the car in the first place by a reputable dealer.

But awell ****e happens

[Bazthemod]

Jeez, where have you been driving? ;):D Most caravanners I've seen recently are too concerned in petting the stupid little yappy dog that's boucing between the dashboard, passenger seat and rear parcel shelf to worry about silly annoyances like other road users... :rolleyes:

I think as far as the young people thing goes, membership of clubs like this one should be an incentive to lower insurance premiums as well.

Some of them are ok... anyway go start you own rant thread stop hi-jacking the 'youth' ship :D:D:D

Agree with insurance & being a member of a club though ... doubt they would ever do it im afraid :(

How old were you Ewan when you had a 'break' from driving :D:p just to prove to others its not all us youngsters... did you feel you learnt from that?

[Craig]

well, here is my tuppence...

The Police checking cars for illegalities ? - Sounds like a great idea to me, and 9 times out of 10 they also check the people in the car, thus getting scumbags who are wanted etc off the streets and back in jail. If your car has an illegal modification, then you have no cause to feel agrieved at the police pointing this out and dealing with it in the normal manner.

Caravans.... I have been a Caravanner for over 30 years (when I was a boy and now as I tow the family caravan). I think what Baz and Ryan say about Stereotyping is true. I travel at "normal speeds" as laid down by the law (50 mph on single carriageway, 60mph on Dual carriageway/Motorway) and if I see more than 4 or 5 cars "itchin" to get by, then I pull in at the next available layby or space. I think we all get frustrated by drivers "hogging" the road, but caravanners are not only guilty of this, so are Lorries, Buses, Horse Boxes, Rover Drivers etc etc etc. The list is endless. Why would I choose to pull half my house with me? Because I know that the accomodation will be tip top and not a flee pit of a hotel when I get to where I am going. Also the vehicle I pull the caravan with gets an average of 35mpg, so better than one of those "old" supercharged "S's" :p :D .

New Drivers - I think that the same rules for bikes should be for cars... A reduced amount of horsepower available to new drivers for the first 2 years, then unlimited power. Notice I said New Drivers and not Young Drivers as a persons' age does not necessarily mean that they will be any worse or better at driving.

Anyway, just my thoughts, more than willing to discuss. :D

[AndyP & Lenore]

.....Come on i have 3 points for tinted windows that came with the car from bmw! They were only 0.2% under the allowed percentage!

....
Ryan

This is very worrying. Are you saying you haven't tinted your front widows AT ALL, other than the manufacturer's standard supplied windows?



So is saying there should be lots tougher criteria for today's youngsters to get on the roads compared to the joke of a test that many of us had to sit in the past... no?


I didn't.:eek:



Hey, my opinion is my own :p:D
I see caravans as an obstruction and a danger on the roads, a relic of the 50s which should have long ago become extinct.. :p
If you're going on holiday to get away, why on earth would you want to take half your house with you?

Don't either of you feel any pangs of guilt for the environment either by towing these monstrosities with their huge spewing engines, or having a long queue of traffic running at far from their most efficient behind you? Or the fact that you're actually causing tailbacks?
And if you say you're driving fast enough not to cause tailbacks, then you're probably breaking the law by driving too fast to be towing... :p;)

That's cool LnL, you're fully entitled to your opinion, but don't get upset if you post it on a public forum and, at best - people disagree with you, at worst - people find it rather offensive.

Clearly you have strong feelings towards caravans and 4X4's, and you've given your reasons. However, it's certainly not my experience that ALL caravanners are discourteous. And why in the world you think all 4X4 drivers require extra tuition on how to drive is beyond me. I can think of a fair few driving groups which would benefit from extra driving skills well before the 4X4 drivers.:rolleyes: I can say for absolute certain, when I'm towing, if I see a queue of more than 2 or 3 vehicles behind me (and I'm the one causing the delay, i.e. there's no-one in front of me) I DO PULL OVER at the earliest opportunity.

However, although this is in Off Topic forum, I don't really wish to draw the conversation away from the main topic - young drivers - so if you really want to have further pop's at 4X4's or Caravan's, could I suggest you open a new thread and continue the conversation there.

B.O.T: I think the idea of reducing the HP for young drivers is probably the absolute best way of ensuring they don't kill themselves - however, it does tar them all with the same brush, which is what all the younguns on here are understandably unhappy about.

Baz, I agree, it's not just the 17-20odd year olds which would benefit from a 3 points and your off the road system. And I agree some 60+ year old drivers can exhibit some pretty dodgy driving from time to time.

A.:D

[Scottie]

Ok Caravans on the road.

Well there no worse and no better (as Craig has said) than alot of other vehicles.

BUT

I tell you this towing a caravan and yes I do tow it really opens your eyes to the risk that other drivers take. Young drivers, middle age drivers and old drivers.

For a period of 6 years we have towed or been behind other caravans on the A9 and seen some stupid stuff.

Now there maybe 5 cars in front then us towing the caravan (keeping up with the flow of traffic) and then a car behind us they come out to pass taking a very silly risk just to pass us and then come in front and be no further forward I see it time and time again. It seems people see a caravan and think Look OMG a caravan I must pass this no matter what risk I take. How do you re educate people that think like.?

I think if a poll was to be taken by the media on

how often are you held up with a caravan against how often do you see a youngster being a nutter in a car.??? which would top the poll.

On another note did anyone watch (it was either last week or the week before) the police traffic prog on ITV 1 on the youngster in his civic and the other in th Fietsa killing his passenger.:eek: :eek: driving like nutters.

The youth of today in their cars is a problem yes not all youngsters but to make something work you have to bring in a system for all and not just for the few so that these changes can be enforced.

[euan]

It's not all about speed though, it's about the inappropriate use of speed - you could still wrap a limited HP car round a tree and kill both it and yourself! The temptation may be to start trying to carry more speed into corners, which is never a fantastic idea if you don't know what's going to happen on the limit. One earlier comment was about having a good handling car - yes that helps but the best handling car in the world can still bite if you provoke it hard enough!

[Scottie]

No posts since 6.25pm doubt all the youngsters are out driving their cars.LOL

[Bazthemod]

No posts since 6.25pm doubt all the youngsters are out driving their cars.LOL

Better make the most of it while we can ... maybe we can have an under 25's Mini run where we can terrorise people and drive dangerously ;):D:p

[monkimagic]

Lorries, Diggers, Tractors have a purpose that serves the greater community, I support that.

Caravans have no purpose ;)

[AndyP & Lenore]

Lorries, Diggers, Tractors have a purpose that serves the greater community, I support that.

Caravans have no purpose ;)

Quite right Monki.:rolleyes:

Oh wait:eek: . You're forgetting the £3Billion annual spend on caravan sales and holiday spend in the UK EVERY YEAR.:eek: :eek: :D

A.;)

[vintageb3]

OK...bear with me here...

I think that waiting until someone reaches 17 is a bit late to be trying to sort them out.

It may be a simplistic way of looking at things....but I look at kids like they are stupid puppy dogs.:D

We are training our new pup just now. The day we picked her up...we took her to the vets for her check up etc. She went for me in a very vicious way as I held her on the examination table...so I slapped her on the nose with the tips of my fingers. She came back at me with an even fiercer attack...so she got my whole hand on her nose and I pointed my finger directly in her eyes. She backed down. The vet said "Well handled"

In essence...I became the Alpha male.:eek:

I do not believe in hitting animals...but I had to deal with her there and then. At the kennels, our pup ruled the roost...and bigger dogs were scared of her. On the way home...Kim and I discussed what had just happened at the vets and Kim told me that she didn't want her to be vicious. I told Kim I could sort her out...it would only take a few days.

When we got her home...I took ten sheets from a newspaper, rolled them up and taped one end. The untaped end was the weapon:rolleyes: This wouldn't hurt a new born baby if you hit it at full whack...but it does make a scary noise.

I got Saffy's attention...took the newspaper...and thrashed it against my own leg...and then pointed right into her eyes with the newspaper. I got her attention...she knew what the newspaper sounded like and what it could be used for. She sat on her backside...and wagged her tail with her ears back...just wanting to be hugged...not whacked.

Then we put the newspaper away...and played with her rolling on the carpet and playing with her toys. Her wee character started to come out and we discovered that she is quite intelligent. She is a lovable wee thing...and has the longest tongue on a dog i have ever seen! You can't get away from her licks!

She got rough as pups do...and started to bite me...no control in her bites. She started to get out of control. I got Kim to throw me the newspaper...and I whacked her on the backside. (Saffy that is...not Kim:eek: that's for an other forum;) ) She got a fright...and when she turned round...I pointed into her eyes. She calmed down immediately.

She pee'd in the hall later...so I gave her a whack on the backside with the newspaper...and I rubbed her nose in it. I gave her a good talking to as i picked her up and marched her outside. We made her stay outside for 15 minutes on her own.

After three days of that...she sat at the door wanting out...and was basically toilet trained.

The newspaper has only been used twice since that time...and that's now over a month...I simply say her name quietly...and point in her eyes from across the room. She now sits on command, lies on command and is a really happy well adjusted little puppy. She is a mischief...but she is not vicious. She licks us to death when Kim and i pick her up from her playgroup (Kim's mum has two dogs...and the three of them play all day outside)...errr....she still rules the roost there though!

She is not terrified of us...just the newspaper...and well...that is hidden from view.

So...how does that relate to kids you ask?

Well...I think the 17 year old arsehole that drives a car to endanger themselves and others started out with poor attitude when they were much much younger. By the time the reach 13 or 14 they are getting drunk, being loud and fighting in public.

Because they got away with it without being chastised or punished...don't you think that handing them the keys to a car...is just another avenue for them to carry on with the same attitude?

I have met Baz, he is a very pleasant young man and after talking with him for only a few minutes...I could tell he was from a good home...and knew the difference between right and wrong. I can tell all of you old farts that he is the type of guy that is probably like the rest of us...likes a wee blast on country roads...but knows when to slow down. Like the rest of us...he could make mistakes and get into a smash...but I think it would be with no alcohol or drugs in his system...and in a different mindset than the yob that was drinking on the street corner when he was 13.

Ryan I have not met (I don't think)...and I think he is a little twat (ONLY JOKING!!!!:eek: :D )

No...I do actually think that Ryan is a sensible laddie as well:D How do I know that? Well...by the way he writes here on the forum...and I do get the feeling that because he has mentioned his Dad and Uncle a few times...that he has a family that has spent time with him and guided him well so far. I'm gonna take a guess here that he too wasn't a yob causing havoc on the street at 13. Am I correct?

I think the real issues here are the way that some youths carry themselves whilst in public.

We need to get kids under control.

In Germany, kids under 16 have to be home before a certain time...I think its 7.00pm or before dark. They are severely punished if they are caught drunk in the street or causing trouble. The parents also get hell.

By the time these kids get car keys...they know what happens if they get their public attitude wrong!

I live on a block of 6 flats that used to house the managers of a local steel mill. The block lies between two council estates...but between these two estates is a rural country road. You can hear these louts at the top of the hill. They are loud...but have houses around them...so they are behaved to a certain extent. By the time they get to my place...they are throwing bricks...bottles...screaming at the top of their lungs...all...because they think they are out of sight and earshot of the public. The worst scum on both estates pass my door every night of the year. They are loud, drunk, on drugs, urinate on our vehicles. The boys behavior is often much worse....and no...I'm not kidding.

As I write this...I'm listening to about 25 youths being drunk and on drugs...singing at the top of voices. CALL THE POLICE???? They don't even come out.

So...get them young....train them into being well behaved little pups.

Then when they get a car....the will have mutual respect for each other....and us old farts:eek:

mark

[Scottie]

Mark. I saw you had made a post and I went OMG how much will I need to scroll down before I can reply.:p :p better go back and read it now .;)

[AndyP & Lenore]

Mark that's probably one of the most sensible answers posted to the forum yet. And one I fully agree with.

Lenore and I were chatting earlier about this. Neither of us were "boy racers" back in the day. I had a 1L Vauxhall Nova. In present day's terms it had about 60 HP I think, but boy if I made it, that thing could shift. But I was always sensible with it. But that's how I was brought up. Respect you own and other peoples property, respect your neighbours and respect your elders.

And I was another one on £30 a week YTS scheme. Now those wages made you prudent with money, that's for sure.

I do want to clarify something here though. I don't think anyone was suggesting Baz or Ryan were boy racers, of any description. I agree with Mark that just going by their posts on here they seem perfectly well adjusted young men, brought up with respect.

A.:D

[vintageb3]

Mr Low...

I really do think that your view on caravans is a bit blinkered.

Is it because they slow you down? Did you have to endure caravan holidays as a kid?

YES...they do slow traffic down...but the cars pulling them pay road tax so have every right to be on the road. If you get behind one...TUF TIT~TY:D

Until you sell your car and buy a pushbike you-re really onto plums about me for one listening to your environmental issues surrounding towing a caravan. How could I even respect your views...if you yourself don't practice what you are "preaching" :eek: :D

You in your Mini polute the air more in one year than the average family that use their caravan for holidays.

Don't you feel bad about poluting the air like you do with your playmini exhaust and all?

mark

[sh@z]

Well said vintage, I agree with that, kids these days have no fear of anything, which kids need.

Scottie, nice and subtle on increasing your post count ;)

[Scottie]

Well said vintage, I agree with that, kids these days have no fear of anything, which kids need.

Scottie, nice and subtle on increasing your post count ;)

I'm a post whore.:D :D

[sh@z]

hehe, you said it not me ;)

[Scottie]

hehe, you said it not me ;)


catching ain't it.;)

[vintageb3]

Mark that's probably one of the most sensible answers posted to the forum yet. And one I fully agree with.

Lenore and I were chatting earlier about this. Neither of us were "boy racers" back in the day. I had a 1L Vauxhall Nova. In present day's terms it had about 60 HP I think, but boy if I made it, that thing could shift. But I was always sensible with it. But that's how I was brought up. Respect you own and other peoples property, respect your neighbours and respect your elders.

And I was another one on £30 a week YTS scheme. Now those wages made you prudent with money, that's for sure.

I do want to clarify something here though. I don't think anyone was suggesting Baz or Ryan were boy racers, of any description. I agree with Mark that just going by their posts on here they seem perfectly well adjusted young men, brought up with respect.

A.:D

Thanks Andy....it was a bit long winded...but I was trying to put my point across.

My first vehicle was a Mark II Escort van. I used to race guys with big engined cars....but the only rule was that you couldn't break the speed limit. I won so many 30MPH races:D

mark

[vintageb3]

I'm a post whore.:D :D

Which one are you tied to this weekend?:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

mark

[Scottie]

Mark remind me never to come back in my next life as a pup in your house.;) Mind you my Mum used to warn me if I don't behave I would get the wooden spoon over the back of my legs.:D Or wait until you father gets home which seemed to work very well.

In Germany it is not law for the kids to be in by a certain time it is set by the family but the Police will approach anyone that they think is to young to be out late at night and escort them home. (Unless it has changed since 90's) however family has a much bigger meaning in Europe so obviously the young ones respect what their parents have to say.

[duncan]

This thread has got some very interesting points.

I'll throw into the ring -

1) The tarring young people with the same brush argument is rubbish. 16 year olds can't drive cars on the road. Does that mean they're all tarred with the same brush. Yes. This is life. Life is unfair.

2) The driving licence is a privilege, not a right.

3) Mods to your car that aren't road legal are asking for trouble. Don't moan when you get caught.

4) First cars are very much different from 10-15 years ago. My first car was a Mini Clubman, then a 957 cc Fiesta. How many sub 1 litre cars, with easy maintenance are about now? Cars like that were great for youngsters to learn about motoring.

Personally, I'd go with the reduced hp for 2 years after passing the driving test. No age discrimination, Everyone. Curfews are not workable. I did nightshifts when I was 18/19, stopping drivers to check they're going to work isnt a good use of resources.

[vintageb3]

Well said vintage, I agree with that, kids these days have no fear of anything, which kids need.



Sh@z...

You will know that life if full of lessons.

Every day we learn something new...but its when were are young that we learn most.

We are told not to slam a door....so we slam the door...then we get a clout from Mother:D

The next time we go to slam the door...we remember the previous clout...so we can make the conscious decision on whether to slam the door and receive a guaranteed clout...or close the door quietly and blend into family life.

This shapes our behavior when it comes to more than slamming doors.

Every time we are given a choice as a kid...it all comes down to knowing what is the wrong choice or right choice...or...the choice that is less likely to guarantee a smack. Then we don't need smacked...the look and threat of a smack is enough....then later on in life...its what is legally right....so the law doesn't smack you. Its the most basic learning curve.

I only got two HUGE thumpings from my Dad when I was a kid...I deserved both of them!

I can remember each and every swing of his arm...and the impact his shovel like hands had on my arse:eek:

It never did me any harm. He thumped the living daylights out of me because he cared for me...and I needed sorted out.

It did sort me out...well at least that's what he told me.

You can't take your hands to kids now....so how is it expected to teach them right from wrong?

Its obvious that the alternative isn't working.

My Mum was the one that kept me in trim. Her niece visited with her wee boy last year. He had been thrown out of the local playgroup as he was uncontrollable. He was biting all the kids and teachers. He came up to my Mum and bite her on the leg...enough to draw blood.

My Mum dropped to her knees and her niece thought my Mum was in pain. My Mum grabbed the wee boy's leg and bite him straight back...and he instantly started crying.

He hasn't bitten anyone since.;)

mark

[Bazthemod]

Its interesting that they way kids are brought up has come into play and i hadn't thought of that in a sense.

However thinking about it now, my car stands out as me and around Dundee my car is instantly linked to me. So when the twat in the corsa wants a race i think to myself firstly its stupid and secondly if anyone sees me and tells my parents i would get a earfull from my mother! :p

So yeh i wont win the race with the twat reving his 1.0L but i feel i win overall as i have a car thats much nicer than his and more than likely have most things better than him as i dont piss my money up against the wall. I would rather spend it on my cars/clothes/gadgets.

Youths making drunken noise could get me into a week long rage... thats partly why we moved out of Dundee and on the outskirts. Our car was getting targetted and our pets etc.

This is partly the reason most of my friends are actually older in comparison to me. I like to think im a mature person for my age and being around some of the people my age drives me nuts as they are so immature. It has been refreshing to come on here and meet people like Ryan who i have alot in common with and get on with really well even though i have only physically met him twice.

In my spare time i help run Dundee Model Railway Club, the majority of members at the club are over 50 as over the years thier attitude to youngsters wanting to join was shocking. After my gran died my grandad started taking me to get our minds off her death, if only for few hours a week. This was in 1997 and to begin with the older members snubbed me and it was very much them and us, but after i proved myself to be mature for my age and they gave me the chance things really improved.

They took an interest in my stories i took an interest in theirs and 10 years later im now a committee member and help organise the Hobby Extravanganza every year in Dundee.

Ok its not the most important thing in the world playing with trains but the older guys at the club gave me a chance and i get on aswell with them as i do with people my age and i really enjoy their company.


So im glad that people like Mark, Andy etc give us youngsters credit for not being one of the twats but i hope people can understand how we can get worked up with the tarring ;):)

I never thought this post would turn into this when i first started, or the thread for that matter.... some healthy debate haha :D

[vintageb3]

Mark remind me never to come back in my next life as a pup in your house.;) Mind you my Mum used to warn me if I don't behave I would get the wooden spoon over the back of my legs.:D Or wait until you father gets home which seemed to work very well.

Well...I would get you out of that car buying habit sharpish...gimmie two days...and maybe a big wooden spoon!;)

I know you are a dog person Fiona. I'm not talking about having the pup cowering in fear....just letting them know who is boss...and what is allowed. If we had let Saffy go on like that...she would have become a vicious snapper. We are looking after a friends 8 month old Collie. Its hyperactive as most Collies are. But it has a very placid nature. He would sit...but not lie down. Took me two days to get him to lie down...now he lies down on the first call. I love dogs...they can be so clever.

This can't be said for the Collie that lives in the house we are working in just now...Its a vicious fiend! Comes at you to bite....then it keeps coming at you trying to bite at every opportunity...it won't back down. Then it will calm down...let you pat it and hug it. Turn your back...and it comes at you again. I had to ask for the dog to be muzzled...as it has biten me three times..and my Dad twice. I don't believe in muzzles...but I don't have the time to deal with the dog's issues. If its put in an other area of the garden behind a fence...it just barks like hell every time we go out to the van...so at least the muzzle allows it to walk about freely.


In Germany it is not law for the kids to be in by a certain time it is set by the family but the Police will approach anyone that they think is to young to be out late at night and escort them home. (Unless it has changed since 90's) however family has a much bigger meaning in Europe so obviously the young ones respect what their parents have to say.

I was in Germany for the first time when I was 15...and it was the law then in the state that we were in. It was with school...and we had to be in by the local curfew time.

That's how I know;)

mark

[Scottie]

well when I saw this post last night I thought post what I am about to post now.

Then I thought NO post some comments that may give the thread a bit of mileage.

The thread certainly has had that and some more off topic

LnL certainly saw it and thought bugger her I'll give her some "tar with the same brush treatment" and attacked 4x4's and caravans because he knows ~~I have both ~~ see how she likes it. Am I right Lnl.;) although I do think you don't like us 4x4 and caravanners.:p

On the 4x4 off topic thing - can I just say until you own and drive both types of vehicles on a day by day basis you will never understand other drivers reactions towards each type of vehicle and how these people have been brained washed into how they think they should think. What I mean is this.

I travel along the same road each day, one day I am in the 4x4 I have to come out to pass parked vehicles I meet the same car coming the other way each day, now when I am in the 4x4 he just keeps coming and we have to squeeze past each other I can see the look on his face (dam 4x4 drivers think they own the road) next day the same road the same parked cars the same car coming the other way but this time I am in my car, I come out to pass the park vehicles but this time the guy in the other car waits until I am past before he continues on his way with a wee wave.:mad: This happens day in day out

right now onto what I would have posted last night and what I truely honestly think.

Your right Baz and Ryan you can't tar all youngster with the same brush infact this is nothing new re young people in cars and driving like nutters resulting in getting killed it has been happening for years. I can look back to my younger years and recall several ex School mates that have lost their lifes due to car accidents before the were 25 and some being the innocent driver of the other car I can't mention on here as I don't want to upset anyone incase they may read the forum MiniMe would know of who I am talking about if I reminded him.

A lot of the hype nowdays about young drivers is because of the media we get to here about it more when horrific accidents happen

but the problem has always been there IMHO. However now the goverment think they must do something about just it in the same way they have to be green (but thats for another thread)

You will never stop people being crazy in cars.

Now to what I wanted to post last night.

Baz your right. Take a clever well educated person who has been brought up to respect people, knows how to behave a true pillar of the community that people look up to everything you said Mark.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6709311.stm

What example is he setting to younger people I ask you.

There is no rule out there that will prevent people from being stupid in their cars and it is not an age thing how can it be.???

[vintageb3]

I got pulled the other night regarding my Halo Lights "Fully E-marked"
Ryan

Hi Ryan

I have these same lights on my car...and yes they are E marked. Are they legal or not then?

mark

(P.S.) I never drive in the dark anyway....its past my bedtime if its dark:eek: :D )

[Scottie]

I was in Germany for the first time when I was 15...and it was the law then in the state that we were in. It was with school...and we had to be in by the local curfew time.

That's how I know;)

mark

well Mark I don't know what age you are but I can tell you back from the 70's there was no such law and up to the 90's. Then Allan left Germany to come home.

Two of his brothers still stay in Germany and they know of no such law.

Dortmund.

Where was you.?

[KenL]

Well in the same vein, the government should also ban anyone from driving huge 4x4s completely,

Well, I'll agree with that one.

[vintageb3]

well Mark I don't know what age you are but I can tell you back from the 70's there was no such law and up to the 90's. Then Allan left Germany to come home.

Two of his brothers still stay in Germany and they know of no such law.

Dortmund.

Where was you.?

It was on the Rhein somewhere...but I can't remember where exactly.

Its because I'm getting old:(

This was the law in that state Fi.

There was an incident that involved the police where these kids tried to break into our hotel...into our room in fact.

They were trying to get in to see the girls in our party...but climbed into our room by mistake.

We didn't know that at the time...we thought they were coming for us....as they had been giving us abuse all day.

We held one of them (OK kicked the crap out of one of them) while one of the our lads went for a teacher.

The police were called...and the kids lifted.

The next day...the hotel owner told us that those kids would be harshly dealt with because they were supposed to be home by dark...and were breaking a local by-law. Their parents would also be dealt with.

Sorry if I said Germany....maybe I should have said one part of Germany to be clearer.

mark

[Scottie]

Well, I'll agree with that one.

really why.??? before long this. and the other manufacturers will follow.

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/frankfurt_auto_show_2007/236/Auto-Show-Preview-Going-Green-in-Frankfurt/;_ylc=X3oDMTFmNmQ0OWxvBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEcG9zAzEEc2Vj A2ZwLXRvZGF5BHNsawNmcmFua2Z1cnQtcHJl


also the X5

http://www.forbesautos.com/photos/2008/porsche/cayenne_hybrid/?partner=yahoo_autos

[KenL]

On the curfew thing, I am for it to a certain extent.

Going all the way to 25 seems a bit extreme to me.

Even though I passed my test at 17 years & 2 months, I think something needs to be done.

I would go for raising the driving age to 18 initially, if things don't change, raise it again.

I like the curfew idea for people with limited experience. Stupidly modified cars should also be banned, as these never seem to be driven sensibly!

I would also raise the drinking age to 21, not to stop 18 year olds drinking but to stop 15 year olds!

[Scottie]

It was on the Rhein somewhere...but I can't remember where exactly.

Its because I'm getting old:(

This was the law in that state Fi.

There was an incident that involved the police where these kids tried to break into our hotel...into our room in fact.

They were trying to get in to see the girls in our party...but climbed into our room by mistake.

We didn't know that at the time...we thought they were coming for us....as they had been giving us abuse all day.

We held one of them (OK kicked the crap out of one of them) while one of the our lads went for a teacher.

The police were called...and the kids lifted.

The next day...the hotel owner told us that those kids would be harshly dealt with because they were supposed to be home by dark...and were breaking a local by-law. Their parents would also be dealt with.

Sorry if I said Germany....maybe I should have said one part of Germany to be clearer.

mark

was furn Haufen Mist :p :p I'm kidding don't sulk.

[AndyP & Lenore]

A shot across the bow....;)

Everyone this is an excellent thread, the main subject being the proposals to place curfew's on YOUNG DRIVERS. There's a lively discussion going on here about the arguments for and against such proposals. Best thread on NMS for a wee while.

Can we please keep the subject on TOPIC.;) Any more discussions on 4X4's or Caravans will be subject to deletion. If you want to discuss 4X4's or caravans, please open another thread.:D

Many thanks,

AndyP
Moderator.

[Gismo]

Can we please keep the subject on TOPIC.;)
I lost count of the times you went off topic :D
It's taken me about 30 mins to read this thread, fantastic stuff, there's obviously a lot of pent up frustration around, so, it'll be interesting to read all the new threads that have been started to talk about caravans and 4 x 4's :rolleyes:

Anyway, a curfew is impossible, how many young un's work nightshift, or even late shifts.

Mark's point of bringing kids up properly is a good one, but, sadly, so many parents are worse than their kids so what chance have they got.

[AndyP & Lenore]

I lost count of the times you went off topic :D
It's taken me about 30 mins to read this thread, fantastic stuff, there's obviously a lot of pent up frustration around, so, it'll be interesting to read all the new threads that have been started to talk about caravans and 4 x 4's :rolleyes:

Anyway, a curfew is impossible, how many young un's work nightshift, or even late shifts.

Mark's point of bringing kids up properly is a good one, but, sadly, so many parents are worse than their kids so what chance have they got.

Agree with that Alan.

Except the stuff about me going off topic.;) Maybe a couple of times to defend my 4x4/caravan tendencies, but it was starting to get out of hand.:D

A.;)

[vintageb3]

I lost count of the times you went off topic :D

Mark's point of bringing kids up properly is a good one, but, sadly, so many parents are worse than their kids so what chance have they got.

Mr Bonnie...you hit the nail right on the head!

Society and social skills have been on the decline for many generations.

How many of us have heard they way some parents scream and swear at kids in the street?

It should not surprise these "parents" when the kid turns round and swears back.

At that point...I think its really to late to expect them to behave themselves and when they get older...they will be a problem on the streets in cars or not.

As I write this....I can hear folks outside a pub about half a mile away screaming football chants...and "Simply the Best" at the top of thier lungs.

I've never seen the need to drink to the point when I'm falling over and feel the need to scream at the top of my lungs.

I think its a big act with most of them. They think loud is cool.

mark

[sh@z]

Mr Bonnie...you hit the nail right on the head!

Society and social skills have been on the decline for many generations.

How many of us have heard they way some parents scream and swear at kids in the street?

It should not surprise these "parents" when the kid turns round and swears back.

At that point...I think its really to late to expect them to behave themselves and when they get older...they will be a problem on the streets in cars or not.

As I write this....I can hear folks outside a pub about half a mile away screaming football chants...and "Simply the Best" at the top of thier lungs.

I've never seen the need to drink to the point when I'm falling over and feel the need to scream at the top of my lungs.

I think its a big act with most of them. They think loud is cool.

mark

The drinking to excess is culture in the UK. I don't drink, never have, never will, most of my friends do and most of the ones from the UK always go to excess... whereas any from further afield tend to moderate themselves a bit (albeit they have their moments). It seems to be the way they think it should be done, and I always wonder why they do it.

[AndyP & Lenore]

The drinking to excess is culture in the UK.......

And has been for many years. Although it is definitely getting worse. I'm just glad Lenore and I were never into the -"It's Saturday night so it is required that you join your peer group in drinking yourself to the point of unconsciousness at the local night-club"- whole fandango.:rolleyes:

Coincidentally, those were the same "mates" from our peer group who even then were bitching about being constantly pulled over by the "cops" and moaning that their Dad is threatening to take their car off them if they add to the 9 points they already had.

Society is slowly but surely breaking down. Sad, but true.:(

A.:mad:

[Burple]

How old were you Ewan when you had a 'break' from driving :D:p just to prove to others its not all us youngsters... did you feel you learnt from that?


THat was just a couple of years back. My own stupid fault, build up of points.
The most annoying thing was I didn't see any of the cameras, and every one of them was WELL out of urban areas, and the roads were very quiet.

Definitley learned from it ;):D and it's made me more defensive. The only bad thing is that I feel I spend far to much time now checking my speed, when my eyes should be on the road. That's the silly part of a points based system.. the Paranoia it induces. Consequences are that I've learned the car a lot more now, and judge my speed (pretty damn close by the way ;)) by revs and general noise :D

[Burple]

Can we please keep the subject on TOPIC.;)
Moderator.


This *IS* the Off Topic and Banter thread, no? so where's the harm?

:D

(and where did my other 2 replies go?);)

[Bazthemod]

This *IS* the Off Topic and Banter thread, no? so where's the harm?

:D

(and where did my other 2 replies go?);)

Its a scandal :D:D:D

[AndyP & Lenore]

This *IS* the Off Topic and Banter thread, no? so where's the harm?

:D

(and where did my other 2 replies go?);)

It *is* off topic and banter, but I was really just trying to keep the thread from drifting away from Baz's original discussion subject. To be fair to him as the thread starter.

As for your tow other replies, I have no idea. As a Mod I can view deleted posts, and there is only ONE deleted post from this thread and that was Monkimagic who accidentally posted the same message twice. I see no deleted messages from you. Unless a super mod like Calum or Gaj deleted them, they either weren't posted in the first place, or they've been eaten up in cyberspace by the Vbulletin system.

A.;)

[GAJ]

Nope - I didn't delete anything. 'Off topic and banter' is what it says on the tin, but each thread should really remain focussed on the subject that the originator intended. But I'm sure everyone knows that really!;)

[Burple]

Hmm.. VBulletin must have had the munchies this morning... :)

Well.. I should try to learn to keep my Off Topic and Banter Topics on Topic then, huh?...:rolleyes:

[Gismo]

Well.. I should try to learn to keep my Off Topic and Banter Topics on Topic then, huh?...:rolleyes:
Yep :p it's a shame to see so many topics discussed on this one, i know, why not start a few others with the headings...................:rolleyes: :D

[Burple]

Yep :p it's a shame to see so many topics discussed on this one, i know, why not start a few others with the headings...................

Y'know what.. It's not worth the bother... for all the dummy spitting and dolly throwing from the 4x4/caravanning bunch who take it all personally ;);):p:p:D

Anyway.. to get back on topic ;) .....

Actually.. never mind. I had a nice long reply ready to post, extolling the virtues of a Test / Licence and Points based parenting system and how that might make positve changes to peoples attitudes everywhere, including on the roads, but you know what...It's not going to stop people (young and old) behaving like Ar$eholes and ruining the good stuff for everybody. and besides, it's 5'oclock, and time for met to gtf out of here and try to avoid being smashed into by 45mph crawlers, tractors, HGVs and 4x4s on the way home. :p:D

Life can suck... Deal with it! :D

[Burple]

Mr Low...

I really do think that your view on caravans is a bit blinkered.
Is it because they slow you down? Did you have to endure caravan holidays as a kid?
YES...they do slow traffic down...but the cars pulling them pay road tax so have every right to be on the road. If you get behind one...TUF TIT~TY:D
Until you sell your car and buy a pushbike you-re really onto plums about me for one listening to your environmental issues surrounding towing a caravan. How could I even respect your views...if you yourself don't practice what you are "preaching" :eek: :D
You in your Mini polute the air more in one year than the average family that use their caravan for holidays.
Don't you feel bad about poluting the air like you do with your playmini exhaust and all?

mark

(Sorry, last OT reply, I can't leave it undefended...)

Nope.. and Nope. If you're going on holiday, the point is to get away right? a bit of an adventure? What's the point if you drag half your home behind your car? So everything will be spotless and clean. If you're really that anal about everything being so clean, you really think going somewhere new where you have no control over the rest of your environment (and having to poo 3 feet from the rest of your family behind a paper thin wall) is such a good idea? ;) Not my ideal 'get-away-from-it' break :p:D

Yes, I know.. getting stuck is a case of tough ta-tas, so is being overtaken by a stream of fed up motorists forced to crawl along behind you..
My bike serves me well when I get the chance to use it, if someone could find me a nice safe way to cylce 18 miles to work every morning down country roads miles from the nearest bus or train, then yes, I'd use it more.
And as for environmental issues, yes, I'm looking into the Cooper Diesel for just those reasons (as well as the huge increase in mpg).

I don't see how the Playmini could possibly make things any worse? It's on after the Catalyic converter, and unless yours strangely magics the exhaust gasses into fairy farts, it ain't making things any worse... :p:D

Sorry for the OT-ness.. I'm gonna leave it now.

[The Dogfather]

Man, haven't seen LnL so heated since............. the last 4x4/caravan thread.

Someone better tazzer him

[Bazthemod]

I don't mind the Off Topic nature... at end of the day thats how real life conversation works. This is only a web forum for people who drive minis in reality lol

If i had written a 'how to' guide for fitting .....ermm... stuff?? :p and someone came along went off topic... then i would be a little upset... but then again the 'how to' wouldn't be posted in Off topic and banter sub heading anyway :)

[Scottie]

I don't see how the Playmini could possibly make things any worse? It's on after the Catalyic converter, and unless yours strangely magics the exhaust gasses into fairy farts, it ain't making things any worse... :p:D

.

Noise pollution:D :p

[Craig]

(Sorry, last OT reply, I can't leave it undefended...)

Nope.. and Nope. If you're going on holiday, the point is to get away right? a bit of an adventure? What's the point if you drag half your home behind your car? So everything will be spotless and clean. If you're really that anal about everything being so clean, you really think going somewhere new where you have no control over the rest of your environment (and having to poo 3 feet from the rest of your family behind a paper thin wall) is such a good idea? ;) Not my ideal 'get-away-from-it' break :p:D

Yes, I know.. getting stuck is a case of tough ta-tas, so is being overtaken by a stream of fed up motorists forced to crawl along behind you..
My bike serves me well when I get the chance to use it, if someone could find me a nice safe way to cylce 18 miles to work every morning down country roads miles from the nearest bus or train, then yes, I'd use it more.
And as for environmental issues, yes, I'm looking into the Cooper Diesel for just those reasons (as well as the huge increase in mpg).

I don't see how the Playmini could possibly make things any worse? It's on after the Catalyic converter, and unless yours strangely magics the exhaust gasses into fairy farts, it ain't making things any worse... :p:D

Sorry for the OT-ness.. I'm gonna leave it now.


you've obviously had a bit tooooo much Cow & Gate food today LnL... Step away from the E numbers... :eek:

If wanting to go an holiday and enjoy yourself without living in a flea pit makes me "anal" in your words, then guilty as charged and I'll see you at the next meet.;) :D

You said before about stereotyping, I REALLY don't think I am your stereotypical caravanner..?:confused:

Nuff said - I'll have the rest of the conversation with you face to face LnL. ;)

[vintageb3]

(Sorry, last OT reply, I can't leave it undefended...)

Nope.. and Nope. If you're going on holiday, the point is to get away right? a bit of an adventure? What's the point if you drag half your home behind your car? So everything will be spotless and clean. If you're really that anal about everything being so clean, you really think going somewhere new where you have no control over the rest of your environment (and having to poo 3 feet from the rest of your family behind a paper thin wall) is such a good idea? ;) Not my ideal 'get-away-from-it' break :D

Well Ewan...This last paragraph says it all...its your view point...nothing more...and you are of course free to have that view point.

Its not your idea of getting away...but it is for countless others.

I still say its a pretty blinkered viewpoint. Hopefully this little jackanory will broaden your viewpoint.

I have retired relatives that own a caravan. They use it most weekends during the summer. They used to holiday abroad...but since one of them had cancer surgery...the simple option of them going for a meal in public isn't very appealing. Without going into too much detail...during and after they have eaten...a lot of what they have to endure would embarrass them in public and maybe turn other peoples stomachs. Having the option of making their own meals in relative comfort of a caravan is a godsend. Also, since the surgery...wee naps are order of the day...and this isn't always an option in a B+B.

So...a caravan holiday is quite a release for them.

AND Guess what!..They have a 4X4 as well. They find it easier to deal with the caravan with that vehicle as they are..as I stated..retired/elderly.

What is your idea of getting away?...or should I say...what is your idea of getting away at present when you still have your stomach and large intestine and have good health?

When you are 65 years old...you could be looking at the option of a caravan so that a couple days a week...you don't have to stare at the same four walls of your home (prison cell?)

Maybe you will have a different words in your mouth the next time you come up behind a caravan...and an old coffin dodger is driving. Maybe they are doing what's left in their life that they are able to do...and enjoying it.


My bike serves me well when I get the chance to use it, if someone could find me a nice safe way to cylce 18 miles to work every morning down country roads miles from the nearest bus or train, then yes, I'd use it more.

Safe??? My God man...how safe do you want to be?. If everyone else follows you onto bikes after you make your gallant gesture of ditching your gas guzzler....what danger could there be?

My mate used to ride his pushbike to Perth from Buckhaven and back everynight when training for bike races....great deal more that 18 miles.(each way). You have just moved out into the country haven't you? Why on earth did you have a car at your old place?:eek: Doesn't make sense that the the ECOWARRIER would own a car!:D

Maybe when the snow is on the ground...you will understand why folks in the country have 4X4's:D

We will all be well impressed and follow suit.....maybe:eek:


And as for environmental issues, yes, I'm looking into the Cooper Diesel for just those reasons (as well as the huge increase in mpg).

OH admit it!...its the £35.00 road tax....you are tighter than me!

The Cooper D still doesn't return decent figuires compared with other cars available. I also thought that diesel emmsions were more harmful than those from petrol engines vehicles. Maybe someone can expand on this?

Why not go for a Daiwoo tincan....70+MPG:D


I don't see how the Playmini could possibly make things any worse? It's on after the Catalyic converter, and unless yours strangely magics the exhaust gasses into fairy farts, it ain't making things any worse... :p:D

Sorry for the OT-ness.. I'm gonna leave it now.

Well...I was under the impression that it allowed the gases out quicker...more gasses out???...surely less ozone for me!!!!???

You cad!

mark

P.S. Of course i still love you wee man!:D

[RyanK]

I don't know what to reply to this thread...im lost in it!

"Big up" to Mark and Baz though for giving me a shout out though, nice to know I am perceived well

Ryan :)

[RyanK]

Hi Ryan

I have these same lights on my car...and yes they are E marked. Are they legal or not then?

mark

(P.S.) I never drive in the dark anyway....its past my bedtime if its dark:eek: :D )

Well I got off with it...

Ever since fitting these lights I have kept the Box in the boot due to hearing a few tell tale stories about folkies being pulled (Clio, Corsa's etc)

I didn't get 'pulled' as such. It was just that one of my mates got pulled, and when I went over to investigate the police proceeded to tell me that my lights were illegal:confused: ..

I then off course showed them the box stating 'E-marked' and they didn't bother me:p

Ryan

[harryboy22002]

Several States here have laws like that --- drivers under 18 can only drive untill 7 or 8 pm ( unless work related ) and only with a limited number of people in the car. Also if your grades drop below a certain level they can suspend your license ( if you are in school ). Lots of variations - some work better than others.


I would like to see the same laws for drivers OVER 60 or 65 -- they scare me sometimes!!!:eek:

i am 60 and have been driving for 40 years -inc -class 1 hg -and you couldnt lace my BOOTS sorry but get your facts right mate
harry

[The Dogfather]

The Cooper D still doesn't return decent figuires compared with other cars available. I also thought that diesel emmsions were more harmful than those from petrol engines vehicles. Maybe someone can expand on this?



Depends if its got a Diesel Particulate Filter, if it has then the exhaust doesn't come any cleaner, my 3.0 vectra has DPF and the exhaust is cleaner on the inside than the outside chrome trim (even after washing). I don't get the cheap road tax because of the 185g of CO2 it puts out though.

[harryboy22002]

Several States here have laws like that --- drivers under 18 can only drive untill 7 or 8 pm ( unless work related ) and only with a limited number of people in the car. Also if your grades drop below a certain level they can suspend your license ( if you are in school ). Lots of variations - some work better than others.


I would like to see the same laws for drivers OVER 60 or 65 -- they scare me sometimes!!!:eek:

have driven for 50 years -never had a bump -you couldn.t lace my boots
have every licence going inc -chieftien tank -what planet are you on??
harry frae scotland.

[GAJ]

i am 60 and have been driving for 40 years -inc -class 1 hg -and you couldnt lace my BOOTS sorry but get your facts right mate
harry

have driven for 50 years -never had a bump -you couldn.t lace my boots
have every licence going inc -chieftien tank -what planet are you on??
harry frae scotland.

Shame the old memory is going though!!;)

[vintageb3]

Hee Hee!!!!:D :D :D :D

mark

[s12cot]

well to stop under 25s driving at night is stupid -

my wife, who is 23 drives to Aberdeen every day for work (from Arbroath) she has a very good job with a lot of pressure and sometimes does not get home until gone 7pm. She is also doing a post grad diploma in Dundee and does not get home until 9.30ish twice a week. So to bring in this ban would render her unemployed and not allow her to carry out her post grad both of which would have a negative effect on her very promising career. Now how can anyone say that would be fair/right??

I agree with those who have mentioned a engine size limit which is progressive with age.

[The Dogfather]

It's not the big engine it's the lack of risk perception that's the problem.

There's a lad lives on the otherside of the village, drives a Corsa base model thingy must have all of about 45hp. He drives flat out everywhere, past the school, shops, kids playing in the street. He has his stereo blaring a bean can exhaust and a baseball cap.

I think the only way to stop idiots like him from getting onto the roads is preventing the parents from breeding in the first place, now watch some bleeding heart liberal come along as say you can't do that!!!! I mean how else would the parents get enough child support/housing benefit to pay for the fags, booze and tattoos.

please note these comments aren't to be taken seriously, just venting my anger. However the little git needs to have his license pulled, but the local coppers are too busy chasing targets.... arrrrrrgh!

[duncan]

It's not the big engine it's the lack of risk perception that's the problem.

There's a lad lives on the otherside of the village, drives a Corsa base model thingy must have all of about 45hp. He drives flat out everywhere, past the school, shops, kids playing in the street. He has his stereo blaring a bean can exhaust and a baseball cap.

I think the only way to stop idiots like him from getting onto the roads is preventing the parents from breeding in the first place, now watch some bleeding heart liberal come along as say you can't do that!!!! I mean how else would the parents get enough child support/housing benefit to pay for the fags, booze and tattoos.

please note these comments aren't to be taken seriously, just venting my anger. However the little git needs to have his license pulled, but the local coppers are too busy chasing targets.... arrrrrrgh!

You're quite right, but imagine him in a 150 bhp motor. He's only arrive at the accident quicker.

[vintageb3]

I think the only way to stop idiots like him from getting onto the roads is preventing the parents from breeding in the first place, now watch some bleeding heart liberal come along as say you can't do that!!!!

As a bleeding heart liberal...I would just like to say....

Oh...I think you get where I'm going with this:D

mark

[sleepyrascal]

i just turned 25 so dont really give a crap, but if i was under 25 this would annoy me. I was never involved in an accident and recieved only 3 points between the ages of 17 and 25, and i dont think thats unusual.

I think a good idea would be to say to those aged (approx) 17 to 20... if you are responsible for a crash or recieve points, you resit your test no questions asked. That way only the non rule abiding drivers are penalised.

The biggest danger on our roads today are the older generation. Dont even attempt to argue out of that one! They are a liability! By older I mean people in their late 70s 80s 90s etc. My next door neighbour was still driving at 94 and he was a very dangerous driver. Nearly killed me several times. His car was all bashed becasue he kept crashing his car.

[Maxxed Ross]

I totally agree with the above!!!

[stoney]

well i am about 2 turn 25 so its no prob 2 me

but i did get 8 points on my licance after only holding it for a year and 1/2 and was made to re sit my test !!!!! it was a real pian in the ass

i got my 8 point for driving without due car and atn...

now for the reason

i was driving along the m77 before they re done it all in a discovey on my way 2 a job for work as i came round a corner i missed juged where the grass verge was as i was used 2 driving a mrk2 glof and went on the grass verge and panicd so i pulled it out and at that point lost control as i had pulled it out 2 fast and went accros 3 lanes of trafic and hit a scoda on the other side of the road going the other way !!

in other words being young driver and not having much experance behind the wheel lost me my licance for a about 6 month by the time i had re aplied for it then book a test .... so on

what did not hlep me was about a month before my cort date a high raking police man was killed in neer enuf the same sopt !!!!!!

so the juge came down hard on me !!!

so IMHO i think that young drivers should just have the car size restricted i think that would cut crashes put them in some thing like a 1.2 clio / corsa some thing like that as i have said before

[S7JGW]

It seems a bit stupid that they want to limit the passengers alloud to be carried by drivers under 25 but at the age of 18 you can drive a bus.
I got my PCV when i was 19 and am 22 just now. What would i do if this came in, pulling up to a stop with a bendi capable of holding over 130 people and saying "sorry i can only carry 3 passengers at this time of night".
Seems a bit daft to me.
I agree with some sort of restriction for the 1st year of driving, like engine size / hp and lessons at night etc.

Jim

[Gorbash12346]

personally i think this is ridiculous i started working shortly after getting my license and owing to the fact i live 25 miles away from it i needed a car that would get me there reliably hence my parents replacing my £20 citroen ax10e with a (brand new at the time 04 plate fiesta 1.25)

i was earning £2.20 an hour so i could never have afforded to pay for this the petrol and my £1400 first year of insurance, hence i owe my parents a lot but my point is there is no public transport where i live and i mean 100% no public transport if i wasn't allowed to drive @ 17 i would have no job and i couldn't have afforded to move out either

if i couldn't drive to work i would be completely stuffed as the nearest town is 8 miles (sure i could cycle but in the winter i don't think that'd work too well) i wouldn't have a job at all. so thats why i say don't raise the driving age... though sure i think some black boxes in under 21's cars would maybe help a bit as for friends in the car.. thats clutching at straws methinks wheres the point behind that

[The Dogfather]

The friends in the car is quite simple, remove the desire to show off and if a crash does happen less dead teenagers.

[The Dogfather]

The black box would sort this, while they're at it they can stick them on mbikes as well :D

[N12 JLK]

Limit the cars for new drivers to 1.0ltr, they can always stick on a big exhaust making the car sound bigger . Oh wait a minute lots already do:eek:

Lets not tar all new drivers with the same brush, after using the same brush for say 30 tarring's the brush would become bald!, use a new one after 5 uses .
get it right;)