Please Help Save Cyclists Rights to use the Roads

[Wul]

In case you're not aware of this petition... and please pass on to
others.

Your right to ride on the road is in jeopardy.
The revised Highway Code says cyclists should "use cycle facilities
where possible". If this Code is approved, cyclists will effectively
lose the right to ride on the road where there are alternative
off-road routes or adjacent facilities, irrespective of how dangerous
or inconvenient these may be.

The implications of this are bad. First we will suffer more abuse and
intimidating driving.

Secondly cyclists will be disobeying the Highway Code when they assess
that a cycle lane or path is dangerous and act accordingly.

Thirdly, if a cyclist is involved in an accident and tries to claim
damages, the insurance companies are likely to argue that the rider Contributed to the accident by not using the cycle facility.

The Highway Code has been laid before parliament. It will
automatically be approved possibly by 20 May unless it is referred to
a House of Commons Committee which cannot amend it and can only
recommend the whole document be rejected.

It will take an unprecedented amount of adverse publicity to persuade
the government to reject the Highway Code in its entirety.

There is a petition on the government website.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/)

One can be sceptical about the value of these petitions but the publicity
is valuable as can be seen from this Sunday Times article of 7 May:

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/features/art (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/features/art)icle1746
923.eceit

It is interesting to note that 35 MP's objected to the original
revised wording. Unfortunately, the replacement wording is worse.

If this Highway Code is approved by government cyclists will effectively
lose the right to ride on the road where there are alternative routes or
adjacent facilities.

Please register your name on the petition and persuade others to do the
same.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/)

Thanks

[Craig]

sounds like a good idea to me. Keep them off the road, they pay NO road tax, go through red lights, nearly cause accidents, scratch people's cars when squeezing through traffic. :mad: :mad:

oh and also knock down pedestrians by going not stopping at pelican crossings.. (eh lesley!) ;)

[Wul]

Thanks for your constructive criticism Craig - i'll find the support petition for you! ;) :p

[duncan]

I agree with Craig on this one!

There's an eedjit-heid that uses one of the main roads out of Dundee City Centre every morning on a folding bike, that could easily use the dedicated cycle paths with a very slight change of route.

Its people like this guy that gives all cyclists a bad name.

[Moonshine]

sounds like a good idea to me. Keep them off the road, they pay NO road tax, go through red lights, nearly cause accidents, scratch people's cars when squeezing through traffic. :mad: :mad:

oh and also knock down pedestrians by going not stopping at pelican crossings.. (eh lesley!) ;)

craig and duncan, your replys are small minded, childish and pathetic.

i think the adage of better be thought of a fool than to open ones mouth and confirm beyond all doubt" springs to mind.

road tax pays for trunk roads, not local roads, which are funded by council tax and central government grants to local authorities. Also consider the environmental and health benefits of cycling

More accidents, fatalities, people running red lights and knocking down pedestirans are caused by cars than bikes. plus if a cyclist is clocked by a car, who comes off worst, irrespective of blame? now there is an incentive to behave

A minority of antisocial cyclists break rules and give the majority a bad name, however this goes for all walks of life, car drivers, motorcyclist, caravans (well almost all of them!) Americans, do we need to continue?

Everyone has a right to use the facilities and it is not YOUR piece of road, you only borrow a 10ft length the infrastructure for a passing moment.

God forbid anyone keeps you late or holds you up...chill out and relax, look outside the tin box and see the beautiful world outside and enjoy the environment we live in...

Gerry

[Burple]

I agree with some of this..
We get a lot of idiots on bikes riding the wrong way up one way roads, ignoring traffic signals and generally being unsafe.
Even worse out in the countryside round us, where our local roads are used by (I assume) a cycle club, where up to 7 or 8 cyclists can be out at the same time, taking up the entire lane of the road, refusing to let cars etc past., which is fair enough, but a large percentage of these guys are oblivious what is going on around them.

I can also see from the other point of view, which is that all you motorists complaining about the habits of cyclists can STFU. I know from cycling to work that the things motorists do around cyclists are MUCH worse. Passing without leaving room for example? ..NOT paying attention at junctions? Swinging car doors open without looking?

Yup, everybody's right when they're in the safety of their fast-travelling lump of metal huh?
Hey, if in doubt all you people who hate cyclists, try cycling to work for a week. THEN complain about cyclists... :p:D

FFS, this retarded country is getting more and more like 'Merika every week.
Politicians = idiots. Pandering to the Nanny-state psyche of this country.

As for the petition, this is one I hope goes through.

(Edit: added more Rant):D

[Big Gordy]

Oooooooooooo:eek: touched a nerve there:rolleyes: ;) :D

[Burple]

God forbid anyone keeps you late or holds you up...chill out and relax, look outside the tin box and see the beautiful world outside and enjoy the environment we live in...

Gerry


Did I mention I''m LOVING living out in the countryside? Everybody should try it at some point.. it totally changes your perspective on towns / cities / housing estates full of self righteous, narrow minded idiots :D:D

I'm even calm when I get to work now... most days.. ;):cool::D

[monkimagic]

Am i missing something, whats all the fuss? the petition is to "ensure Cyclists use cycle facilities where possible". What is wrong with that?

The following made me laugh.

The implications of this are bad. First we will suffer more abuse and
intimidating driving. How?

Secondly cyclists will be disobeying the Highway Code when they assess that a cycle lane or path is dangerous and act accordingly. How or who is gonna enforce this? Its like saying if I am driving down an A road in my designated carriageway and I see a danger I am not alowwed to avaoid it....nonsense! if the Cycle lane is blocked or dangerous look for a safe alternative.

Thirdly, if a cyclist is involved in an accident and tries to claim
damages, the insurance companies are likely to argue that the rider Contributed to the accident by not using the cycle facility.
Is the Cyclist insured?

I believe that its trying to acheive .... if there is a Cycle lane use it! If there is'nt...ride with due care.

<Jeez>

[Wul]

OK Guys - knew this would spark a debate!

Have any of you tried using a so-called dedicated cycle path that is part of a road - due to the fact that cars avoid them, they become the new gutter of a road - ie all the glass, stones and debris from everyday traffic collects in them meaning the bikes can get more punctures using them.

Off-Road cycle paths tend to be comnined pedestrian routes also - meaning clashes with pedestrians, prams and dogs - who has right of way?

Craig - by your comment - if eejit cyclists are the reasoning not to support the petition - should the same thinking not apply to all drivers - so car drivers who cause hit and runs, injured pedestrians and run red lights should make all car drivers to be tarred with the same brush?

LnL - check the current highway code for the correct way to pass a cyclist - they are entitled to the same room as any other road user. You get annoyed at Learner Drivers not pulling in to let you past? :p

As a car owner who regularly cycles - this change to the highway code is like telling a car driver he must use the A8000 to approach the forth road bridge meaning he must sit in 30mins of traffic even though the A90 is empty. It's removing the rights of a cyclist to choose a legal route to cycle.

Also last friday I was almost ran over by a car driver towing a trailer who was illegally driving in the bus lane - the mudguard of the trailer clipped my leg even though I was only 3ft from the kerb. It's people like that who cause the accidents!

[Wul]

Monki:

How or who is gonna enforce this? Its like saying if I am driving down an A road in my designated carriageway and I see a danger I am not alowwed to avaoid it....nonsense! if the Cycle lane is blocked or dangerous look for a safe alternative. The Police will enforce it along will all other parts of the highway code!

Thirdly, if a cyclist is involved in an accident and tries to claim
damages, the insurance companies are likely to argue that the rider Contributed to the accident by not using the cycle facility.
Is the Cyclist insured? Yes - just like pedestrians are in a non-fault accident assuming the driver of the vehicle at fault has insurance.

[Bignorm]

Off-Road cycle paths tend to be comnined pedestrian routes also - meaning clashes with pedestrians, prams and dogs - who has right of way?



I LIKED THIS BIT

i was hit by a guy on a bike a couple of months back walking home from work as the guy fell off his bike i stood up and said thanks for that he started going daft i walked away <not like me i might add> then he came after me on his bike shouting like it was my fault he never stoped in time was quite funny tho :D but who has the right of way ???????????????????????

[Burple]

LnL - check the current highway code for the correct way to pass a cyclist - they are entitled to the same room as any other road user. You get annoyed at Learner Drivers not pulling in to let you past? :p


Oh yeah.. I know. :) The ones I'm talking about are out on the Open road - a 60 mph zone. They should at least be paying attention to what's going on around them. But that's just probably that particular group. I'd love to be our there trying it, but from what I've seen of the other Car drivers on that road.. NO Chance! :mad::D

[Burple]

Also last friday I was almost ran over by a car driver towing a trailer who was illegally driving in the bus lane - the mudguard of the trailer clipped my leg even though I was only 3ft from the kerb. It's people like that who cause the accidents!

If you don't already.. try what I do.. just assume that EVERYBODY else on the road around you is a complete idiot. You won't be disappointed :D:D:D

[duncan]

craig and duncan, your replys are small minded, childish and pathetic.

i think the adage of better be thought of a fool than to open ones mouth and confirm beyond all doubt" springs to mind.

road tax pays for trunk roads, not local roads, which are funded by council tax and central government grants to local authorities. Also consider the environmental and health benefits of cycling

More accidents, fatalities, people running red lights and knocking down pedestirans are caused by cars than bikes. plus if a cyclist is clocked by a car, who comes off worst, irrespective of blame? now there is an incentive to behave

A minority of antisocial cyclists break rules and give the majority a bad name, however this goes for all walks of life, car drivers, motorcyclist, caravans (well almost all of them!) Americans, do we need to continue?

Everyone has a right to use the facilities and it is not YOUR piece of road, you only borrow a 10ft length the infrastructure for a passing moment.

God forbid anyone keeps you late or holds you up...chill out and relax, look outside the tin box and see the beautiful world outside and enjoy the environment we live in...

Gerry

Gerry,

Frankly I couldnt give a rats what you think.
Your wee rant is typical of the bloody minded cycling taliban out there that think they're above the current highway code anyway.

[monkimagic]

Oih you two!, keep it light and constructive !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[monkimagic]

The state of the cycle lanes, other road users etc...are not the point. The point is if.

If there is a cycle lane, use it.

If its like these....dont :eek:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41420000/jpg/_41420118_bikelane3.jpg


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41425000/jpg/_41425762_richarddlewis.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41443000/jpg/_41443690_atlanta.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41447000/jpg/_41447798_doncaster.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41448000/jpg/_41448692_2.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41426000/jpg/_41426264_lincoln.jpg

[duncan]

see what you've gone and done now, Its not that I dont agree with some points that are made but the reason behind this is sound.

The state of the cycle lanes, other road users etc...are not the point. The point is if.

If there is a cycle lane, use it.

Exactly the example I gave, and seemingly small minded for it.
Better watch out monki, you'll be labelled that too.

You'd think from some of the posts that the roads were in perfect conditon!

[Moonshine]

Gerry,

Frankly I couldnt give a rats what you think.
Your wee rant is typical of the bloody minded cycling taliban out there that think they're above the current highway code anyway.

says the master of wit and ready repartee!

I'm afraid your reply places you clearly in the camp of the arrogant and small minded car driving majority who are so prejudiced they clearly cannot consider any other opinion than their own and fail to appreciate the virtues of joined up, multi transportational economy and society which doesn't place the car at the centre of the world.

I drive a car, I own 2 bikes. I commute 80 miles to work and back each day, so i'm not anti Car. But from April through to October i manage to commute probably 100 - 120 or so of the weekly milage on my bike and I'll do somewhere between 60 and 100 over the weekends

I race both road and mountain bikes, am a member of the BCF, the British Cycling Federation, and thereby carry 3rd party insurance for my riding.

I do not jump red lights, i prefer to do a 3 minute trackstand at the lights beside the blonde in the convertable whilst chatting her and i can still average 20mph over a hilly 25mile section to work. - have a look at the average mph of the car next time - bet you stuggle to beat 30 - 40 mph i know i do, even with 20 miles of the commute each way on motorway.
-the bike is not as slow as it seems.

We should be a society of freedom, the right to choose, wihin reason how to go about our lawful business. The fact is the options given are not practical, safe (usually full of obstacles) well maintained, see te absurd examples above as proof of the crazy planning i'm talking about
Provide the appropriate infrastucture and people would use it, however the fact is it doesn't exist as bikeing has been tagged onto the available space of either roads or pavements.

Personally i ride on the roads. I was taken off my bike last year by an OAP who turned right across the Dual carrridgeway into me and had close calls on numerous occasions - its the risk one takes, however i was not at fault during any of these instances. All of which boiled down to impatience on the behalf of motorists. As I said, people need to relax and slow down. It makes everyones life more pleasant.

Gerry

Touche.

[Scottie]

sounds like a good idea to me. Keep them off the road, they pay NO road tax, go through red lights, nearly cause accidents, scratch people's cars when squeezing through traffic. :mad: :mad:

oh and also knock down pedestrians by going not stopping at pelican crossings.. (eh lesley!) ;)

Craig.:eek: :eek: tut tut.

If we invested in bike lanes like how Holland do then none of the above would happen.

[Gismo]

Walks in, reads all the comments :eek: and dives for cover :rolleyes:
Sheesh, push bikes, who wants one of them ;)
Dashes out of sight

[AndyP & Lenore]

Walks in, reads all the comments :eek: and dives for cover :rolleyes:
Sheesh, push bikes, who wants one of them ;)
Dashes out of sight

PMSL.

Hi Alan, cosy in here isn't it. I did the same.:D :D :D :D

A.;)

[Gismo]

Hi Alan, cosy in here isn't it. I did the same.:D :D :D :D
Sitting comfortable and waiting for round 2, ding ding :D

[Scottie]

I agree with Craig on this one!

There's an eedjit-heid that uses one of the main roads out of Dundee City Centre every morning on a folding bike, that could easily use the dedicated cycle paths with a very slight change of route.

Its people like this guy that gives all cyclists a bad name.

but Duncan if you used your local public transport (like what you advocate) then eedjits on bikes wouldn't be your concern.:p :p

[monkimagic]

Round 2....


If only I drove a Hummer, I'd give this lot what for.......

http://i9.tinypic.com/63vnaiv.jpg

[duncan]

says the master of wit and ready repartee!

I'm afraid your reply places you clearly in the camp of the arrogant and small minded car driving majority who are so prejudiced they clearly cannot consider any other opinion than their own and fail to appreciate the virtues of joined up, multi transportational economy and society which doesn't place the car at the centre of the world.

I drive a car, I own 2 bikes. I commute 80 miles to work and back each day, so i'm not anti Car. But from April through to October i manage to commute probably 100 - 120 or so of the weekly milage on my bike and I'll do somewhere between 60 and 100 over the weekends

I race both road and mountain bikes, am a member of the BCF, the British Cycling Federation, and thereby carry 3rd party insurance for my riding.

I do not jump red lights, i prefer to do a 3 minute trackstand at the lights beside the blonde in the convertable whilst chatting her and i can still average 20mph over a hilly 25mile section to work. - have a look at the average mph of the car next time - bet you stuggle to beat 30 - 40 mph i know i do, even with 20 miles of the commute each way on motorway.
-the bike is not as slow as it seems.

We should be a society of freedom, the right to choose, wihin reason how to go about our lawful business. The fact is the options given are not practical, safe (usually full of obstacles) well maintained, see te absurd examples above as proof of the crazy planning i'm talking about
Provide the appropriate infrastucture and people would use it, however the fact is it doesn't exist as bikeing has been tagged onto the available space of either roads or pavements.

Personally i ride on the roads. I was taken off my bike last year by an OAP who turned right across the Dual carrridgeway into me and had close calls on numerous occasions - its the risk one takes, however i was not at fault during any of these instances. All of which boiled down to impatience on the behalf of motorists. As I said, people need to relax and slow down. It makes everyones life more pleasant.

Gerry

Touche.

Gerry, you only got the response you did, as you're rant was totally out of order, IMHO. Way over the score for the tone of the website. If you don't like the answer, well, still, i don't give a toss.

What I will say in your defence, is you're probably one of the minority of cyclists who actually carry Insurance so give your self a nice big smug grin.

I work with a mad keen cyclist, who thinks nothing of cycling home to Perth from Dundee after a 12 Hour shift. His holidays are in the Alps with his bike. He also rides for a team. I think you get the picture here, this guy is cycling crazy.

This person I gave as an example of bad cycling, is the very one that the guy I work with always cringes when he sees him. He also is never too happy when he sees them using Riverside Drive in Dundee - there's a prefectly good cycle path that he uses every day when he rides home.

So you see, I'm not speaking from a point of ignorance, I'm basing my judgement on a guy that actually rides a hell of a lot.

And as for your statement, "We should be a society of freedom" yes, freedoms are all very well, but that freedom does come with limits. Using that statement of freedom will we be seeing cyclists on Motorways? After all, we live in a society of freedom, so thats OK then.

So seeing as motorways - the safest of roads - are banned to bikes, it makes sense to me, that WITHIN REASON, AND THERE IS A CYCLE PATH NEARBY, then bikes should be off the far more dangerous non-motorways.

[duncan]

but Duncan if you used your local public transport (like what you advocate) then eedjits on bikes wouldn't be your concern.:p :p

I'm mainly in the works van when this eedjit is about :p

[Scottie]

I'm mainly in the works van when this eedjit is about :p


not a diesel smoking puffing van:eek: :eek: and I bet it is white.;)

[Burple]

Round 2....


If only I drove a Hummer, I'd give this lot what for.......



Mmmmmm... squishy and meaty!! :D:D:D:D

[duncan]

not a diesel smoking puffing van:eek: :eek: and I bet it is white.;)

Funny you should say that............:p

[Wul]

And as for your statement, "We should be a society of freedom" yes, freedoms are all very well, but that freedom does come with limits. Using that statement of freedom will we be seeing cyclists on Motorways? After all, we live in a society of freedom, so thats OK then.

So seeing as motorways - the safest of roads - are banned to bikes, it makes sense to me, that WITHIN REASON, AND THERE IS A CYCLE PATH NEARBY, then bikes should be off the far more dangerous non-motorways.

Duncan - the highway code currently prevents cyclists from using motorways so that right has already gone! And i for one don't want it back! :p

The Cycle path argument is a simple one - just because there is a cycle path there should we all by law be made to use it? Should we campaign to make it illegal for pedestrians to walk on A or B Roads because there is a footpath next to it? Or should they have the right to choose?

[duncan]

Duncan - the highway code currently prevents cyclists from using motorways so that right has already gone! And i for one don't want it back! :p

The Cycle path argument is a simple one - just because there is a cycle path there should we all by law be made to use it? Should we campaign to make it illegal for pedestrians to walk on A or B Roads because there is a footpath next to it? Or should they have the right to choose?

Is there still an offence of Jaywalking for pedestrians?
I guess that would cover your scenario. And as for pedestrians who would walk along the likes of Riverside Drive, or down the Kingsway in Dundee, then they deserve to have that restriction placed on them, to ensure the safety of all road users.

Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with the proposals, that where there is a prefectly usable cycle path beside the road, then cyclists should be using the path, not the road. Times change, and as roads are now at their busiest ever, and litigation is prevelent, then having slow moving unprotected users on main roads isnt an option any more, IMHO.

We didnt spend all that money on the National Cycle Network just for a laugh, did we?

[Gismo]

Is there still an offence of Jaywalking for pedestrians?
Oh i know the answer to this one, ayup, you can be arrested for jaywalking :rolleyes:

[Wul]

Is there still an offence of Jaywalking for pedestrians?
I guess that would cover your scenario. And as for pedestrians who would walk along the likes of Riverside Drive, or down the Kingsway in Dundee, then they deserve to have that restriction placed on them, to ensure the safety of all road users.

Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with the proposals, that where there is a prefectly usable cycle path beside the road, then cyclists should be using the path, not the road. Times change, and as roads are now at their busiest ever, and litigation is prevelent, then having slow moving unprotected users on main roads isnt an option any more, IMHO.

We didnt spend all that money on the National Cycle Network just for a laugh, did we?

Duncan - the point I am personally making is not about what the Cyclist should do - it's about having the choice. Of course if the cycle lane is in good repair and safe/ direct then by all means use it. It's the wording which reads as a mandatory direction - like a one way street sign and not obeying is breaking the law!

Yes times change - but why should Motorised road users be given overall right of way - just because they are the majority? Is this a breach of the rights of the minority? It's another step in the worng direction of a PC mad world - freedom of choice and all that - if ther person is silly enough to make the wrong choice of route then they must live with the consequence of that poor decision.

A lot of the National Cycle Network is off road and used by kids and families and tourists - so definately not a wast of money at all - but just cos it's there should I be forced to cycle on it? :P

[Wul]

Oh i know the answer to this one, ayup, you can be arrested for jaywalking :rolleyes:

Are you sure you read the HC for your test Allan?

1: Pavements or footpaths should be used if provided. Where possible, avoid walking next to the kerb with your back to the traffic. If you have to step into the road, look both ways first.

The key word being SHOULD not MUST!

:p ;)

[Moonshine]

This person I gave as an example of bad cycling, is the very one that the guy I work with always cringes when he sees him. He also is never too happy when he sees them using Riverside Drive in Dundee - there's a prefectly good cycle path that he uses every day when he rides home.
.

as i said, it depends on the quality of the infrastructure, and in the particular case you quote, there is no excuse for the chap on the road at this point. i know the piece of road you talk about and this is clearly a case of ignorant behaviour by one person causing the rest of the cycling population to be legislated against.

Actually Dundee is one of the places which is ideally suited to a broad cycle path, however for every mile of reasonable route, there are many more poorly thought out road planning nightmares which are not safe well maintained or practical.

The national cycle network is a great improvement and infrastructure resource, helping divert many cyclists from the road onto greener lanes but please don't forget we do this fo pleasure as well and there is nothing less fun than going shoulder to shoulder with an malcolms wagon, trust me. Unfortunately the network is more suited for passages, and commuters in the urban environment are not so lucky when it comes to choice of route and route quality in the urban environment. Give the choice of riding on the A9 or the cycle path, i'll let you guess which one i'd use, (hint, it is not the trunk road!)

put it another way, imagine you have the choice of driving your car down the billard table smooth bus lane or potholed, speed bumped, kerb laden and glass strewn car lane beside it. Which lane would you want to drive in. I'd join you in the bus lane in my car too. It might sound melodromatic, but that is often the choice facing riders, and it is a bit of a no brainer.

Even today, when riding in a bunch, people shout and swear, telling us to read the highway code and get in a single line...unfortunately that is not what the section 51 of the H/C says and riders should
"not ride more than two abreast
ride in single file on narrow or busy roads ..."

So what hope to we have if people can't understand the current law, nevermind a new one?

Gerry

[duncan]

Duncan - the point I am personally making is not about what the Cyclist should do - it's about having the choice. Of course if the cycle lane is in good repair and safe/ direct then by all means use it. It's the wording which reads as a mandatory direction - like a one way street sign and not obeying is breaking the law!

Yes times change - but why should Motorised road users be given overall right of way - just because they are the majority? Is this a breach of the rights of the minority? It's another step in the worng direction of a PC mad world - freedom of choice and all that - if ther person is silly enough to make the wrong choice of route then they must live with the consequence of that poor decision.

A lot of the National Cycle Network is off road and used by kids and families and tourists - so definately not a wast of money at all - but just cos it's there should I be forced to cycle on it? :P

There's a lot of things that people are forced to do now, when before it wasn't either enforced, or not illegal.

Its also the "right" of someone in York, i think it is, to kill a Scotsman. Do you think that "right" should still stand - of course not. Its because times have changed, much like the roads, and where provided, a cycle path must be used within reason.

This whole warcry of "Its my rights" would make anyone who drafted human rights legislation cringe. Its there to protect the oppressed, not let some dude ride his bike on the road.

I guess we'll never agree on this one, Wul, but its been interesting to debate it! :)

[Wul]

I guess we'll never agree on this one, Wul, but its been interesting to debate it! :)

Defo Duncan - it's been far too quiet on here of late! :p

[AndyP & Lenore]

Defo Duncan - it's been far too quiet on here of late! :p

Hey now wait just a minute! What about my road charging thread? That was interesting for a while.:D :D :D