Road charging goes ahead.

[AndyP & Lenore]

I see we all wasted our time signing that petition then.:( :mad: :mad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm

A.:mad:

[sedgie]

But is it not just Inglund n Wales?....if so....about time they "tested" on them for a change!:D

[AndyP & Lenore]

But is it not just Inglund n Wales?....if so....about time they "tested" on them for a change!:D


Aye, but me and about one and a half million other motorists signed the petition that Tony Blair himself put on his own web site saying in a fairly clear tone: stuff yer road charging plans up yer arse, mr blair.

And to prove the wonderfully open and honest democracy we live in, he's clearly said.. NAW! Stuff yer opinion up yer ain arse and pay ma charges!

I know this is just Englandshire, but it's the tip of the iceberg, the rest of the UK will follow suit, regardless of whether we want it or not.

A.:mad:

[Scottie]

well if road charging means we loose road tax I am all for it.

[sedgie]

I did sign that road petition....a long time ago!...n i was one o the ones that put it up!.... i sign loads o the "online"n ones....but i f*cking glad they testing on the "sooth" ...ok if it comes to us...so be it!...but i hope they lower road tax!;)

[AndyP & Lenore]

well if road charging means we loose road tax I am all for it.

Not a chance.:mad: This will just be another way to screw the motorist. It's more of a way to stop us using the car, rather than paying for any road repairs or "alternative" transport initiatives.:mad:

[duncan]

Not a chance.:mad: This will just be another way to screw the motorist. It's more of a way to stop us using the car, rather than paying for any road repairs or "alternative" transport initiatives.:mad:

But building more roads isnt the answer. More roads only increases traffic, increasing congestion further.

What the country needs to do is stop the 9 to 5, where everyone travels at the same time. Spreading the working day would go a long way to stop the madness of getting to work for 9.

I'm glad I start at 7am, when the roads are quiet.

[vintageb3]

But building more roads isnt the answer. More roads only increases traffic, increasing congestion further.

What the country needs to do is stop the 9 to 5, where everyone travels at the same time. Spreading the working day would go a long way to stop the madness of getting to work for 9.

I'm glad I start at 7am, when the roads are quiet.

Shouldn't you be in your bed by now then young lad?:eek: :p

mark

[minidriver#1]

Not a chance.:mad: This will just be another way to screw the motorist. It's more of a way to stop us using the car, rather than paying for any road repairs or "alternative" transport initiatives.:mad:

That doesnt sound like a bad thing to me tbh.

[AndyP & Lenore]

That doesnt sound like a bad thing to me tbh.

You think it's a good thing the motorist is screwed?:confused: Again?:confused:

A.

[duncan]

So what is the answer then?
There's no point in just dismissing road pricing, unless you're going to come up with a credible alternative.

Its not like its Public Transport that's clogging up the roads. Its single occupancy vehicles that manage to do that. If public transport wasn't screwed over like it has been by successive governments, then the country wouldn't be grinding to a halt.

Look at Switzerland - its got something called a "Co-Ordinated public transport system". That would be a start in the UK.

[AndyP & Lenore]

So what is the answer then?
There's no point in just dismissing road pricing, unless you're going to come up with a credible alternative.

Its not like its Public Transport that's clogging up the roads. Its single occupancy vehicles that manage to do that. If public transport wasn't screwed over like it has been by successive governments, then the country wouldn't be grinding to a halt.

Look at Switzerland - its got something called a "Co-Ordinated public transport system". That would be a start in the UK.

Duncan I'm not daft enough to think I have all the answers. I just object to road pricing purely to fund government coffers. If it is going to be used to fund alternative transport systems - fine - but the skeptic in me tells me it wont. I can't help but think this is going to end up being taxing for the sake of taxing.

But getting back to my main reason for posting this thread, over 1.5 million people signed a petition to say we do not want road pricing. Despite this overwhelming objection, our democratically elected government are going to force it on us anyway. The point of my post was not road pricing, per se, but the way our opinion doesn't seem to count for anything these days. This is not how Labour got into government, but it is the way they will leave government.

A.:(

[duncan]

Hear what you're saying Andy.

You can play with statistics to prove any point, and in the generation of virial video, and the publicity that certain TV programmes gave it, getting the amount of "signatures" is not a great surprise.

However, "Only" 1.5 million signed it. thats 58.5 million in the UK that didnt however, so hardly an overwhelming objection - especially as its not difficult to add your objection multiple times.

So far, the London charges have gone into Public Transport, which seems to have got London moving again. No bad thing in my book.

[minidriver#1]

You think it's a good thing the motorist is screwed?:confused: Again?:confused:

A.

I think it's a good thing to persuade people to think whether using their car is necessary.

[minidriver#1]

Duncan I'm not daft enough to think I have all the answers. I just object to road pricing purely to fund government coffers. If it is going to be used to fund alternative transport systems - fine - but the skeptic in me tells me it wont. I can't help but think this is going to end up being taxing for the sake of taxing.

A.:(

So you're basing your arguement purely on speculation? Is it worth continuing this thread?



Despite this overwhelming objection, our democratically elected government are going to force it on us anyway.

So you'd rather the voice of 1.5million be heard over that of all the millions who didn't sign the petition who may be for the new road pricing? Hardly democratic.

[Scottie]

o'ooo rubs hands together. this thread is going to get intersting.

fight fight fight come on boys out yer corners.:D :p ;)

[AndyP & Lenore]

I think it's a good thing to persuade people to think whether using their car is necessary.

Agree with that fully. Don't agree road pricing is the way to do it.

[AndyP & Lenore]

o'ooo rubs hands together. this thread is going to get intersting.

fight fight fight come on boys out yer corners.:D :p ;)

Put yer stick away lady. We can have this discussion without getting into a fight. You just watch.;)

[AndyP & Lenore]

So you're basing your arguement purely on speculation? Is it worth continuing this thread?


You can stop contributing any time you wish KJ. I have my opinion, you have yours. What's wrong with lively discussion/opinions. Forgive me for not being a yes yes man.




So you'd rather the voice of 1.5million be heard over that of all the millions who didn't sign the petition who may be for the new road pricing? Hardly democratic.

Sure, but you can't possibly argue that 60Million people read the petition and only 1.5million decided to sign it.

A.:D

[duncan]

And for the same reason, you can't rely on the fact that 1.5 million signatures are unique.

If it was a ballot conducted by the Electoral Reform Society or similar body, then there would be creadence in the amount of votes. However its not, and therefore remains flawed.

As for road pricing, again, the London scheme has invested heavily in Public Transport, Bus usership is up - the only area of the UK where this has happened, average speeds have improved for the remaining users.
And with the Oyster Card, its relatively cheap to use too.

The M6 Toll has been given many good reports on here, and thats basically road pricing too.

I still stand by my earlier point of spreading the rush hour, that is a far better way to increase capacity at minimal cost. We just need to break the mindset that the only way to work is 9 to 5.

The policy of building more roads is not an answer for already congested areas.

[minidriver#1]

You can stop contributing any time you wish KJ. I have my opinion, you have yours. What's wrong with lively discussion/opinions. Forgive me for not being a yes yes man.




Sure, but you can't possibly argue that 60Million people read the petition and only 1.5million decided to sign it.

A.:D

Sure you are entitled to an opinion, but you can't expect people to take that opinion seriously when it's not based on anything but speculation. If you don't bring anything to the table in a proper discussion you'll end up being left behind to just sit and watch.

[Scottie]

I'm not daft

A.:(

;) h'mm needs to think about that one.:p :p

[AndyP & Lenore]

Sure you are entitled to an opinion, but you can't expect people to take that opinion seriously when it's not based on anything but speculation. If you don't bring anything to the table in a proper discussion you'll end up being left behind to just sit and watch.


KJ, your contribution so far has hardly been substantive. Other than arguing black is white. Righteous as ever.

A.:rolleyes:

[AndyP & Lenore]

Duncan, please don't get me started on the Electoral Reform Society. The recent Scottish Parliament Elections were shambolic.:mad:

Neil and I make trips down to London two or three times a year for conferences. I've said on several occasions that the transportation system from Edinburgh to London (any one of the airports), then into London, around the tubes and back out again, is second to none. Always on time and always reliable. However we often take cabs between meetings for speed!:mad: HA! Speed! We'd be quicker walking. It seems to us that London is still congested to hell and back. Every cabbie we've spoken to reckons the congestion charging is not working. They haven't noticed any difference in their ability to get round London and do their job. I would fully accept talking to a cabbie about the congestion charging, you are unlikely to get a frank answer, but our own experience tells us they're not far from wrong. But I also accept this opinion is based on 2 or 3 trips per year. Not from working in London 5 days a week.

M6 Toll. Fantastic bit of tarmac. Both Oxford runs we used the M6 Toll. great idea. Don't have any problem with that. But it's optional. What is going to be forced on to us is not optional.

Duncan, you'll be pleased to know I am doing my bit to avoid the rush hour congestion. We start work around 12 noon and finish about 11pm five days a week. Hey, maybe we'll start a new trend.:D

A.:D

[minidriver#1]

KJ, your contribution so far has hardly been substantive. Other than arguing black is white. Righteous as ever.

A.:rolleyes:

I guess we're both as bad as each other. But at least I gave a reason for what I believe. I don't claim to be righteous, I just don't take the easy option and jump on the bandwagon. It's easy for us to argue against it because we go around in convoys of up to 30 cars, drive our minis regularly and some of us even by more cars than pints of milk.

As long as the money goes to improving and introducing new methods of public transport then I'm all for it, even if the money isn't used entirely for that purpose I'm still for it.

If we all agreed all the time this forum would be boring, besides someone has to be the devils advocate.

[duncan]

Duncan, please don't get me started on the Electoral Reform Society. The recent Scottish Parliament Elections were shambolic.:mad:

More like stupid people. If they cant understand a simple ballot paper, then though. But thats another matter. The council one was the one that was more complex of the two - IMHO only.



Neil and I make trips down to London two or three times a year for conferences. I've said on several occasions that the transportation system from Edinburgh to London (any one of the airports), then into London, around the tubes and back out again, is second to none. Always on time and always reliable. However we often take cabs between meetings for speed!:mad: HA! Speed! We'd be quicker walking. It seems to us that London is still congested to hell and back. Every cabbie we've spoken to reckons the congestion charging is not working. They haven't noticed any difference in their ability to get round London and do their job. I would fully accept talking to a cabbie about the congestion charging, you are unlikely to get a frank answer, but our own experience tells us they're not far from wrong. But I also accept this opinion is based on 2 or 3 trips per year. Not from working in London 5 days a week.


See, funnily enough, I go down to London a few times a year, but not on business. And as far as I can see, the Public Transport is much better for the occasional user, such as myself. The bus system is far better than was, and the tube is seeing much needed Investment.

If this is caused by money from the congestion charge, then it is a major benefit. And the fact that the avarage speed in London has incresed is maybe a clue to traffic flow.



M6 Toll. Fantastic bit of tarmac. Both Oxford runs we used the M6 Toll. great idea. Don't have any problem with that. But it's optional. What is going to be forced on to us is not optional.


Err, yes, it will be. You'll have the option of using other forms of transport! Many places have Park and Ride schemes that would avoid you paying a congestion charge from entering the area. Most civilised countries are trying to reduce car use anyway. Using up a finite resource sitting in traffic jams isnt the best way forward.


Duncan, you'll be pleased to know I am doing my bit to avoid the rush hour congestion. We start work around 12 noon and finish about 11pm five days a week. Hey, maybe we'll start a new trend.:D

A.:D

Its the only sensible way to work ;) :D

[Gorbash12346]

considering my pay for last year was only 10800 and i work full time doing about 18k miles a year i think i'm just ever so slightly screwed

[minidriver#1]

considering my pay for last year was only 10800 and i work full time doing about 18k miles a year i think i'm just ever so slightly screwed

The amount you will be paying is representative of your financial circumstances.

This might even lead to less non-hybrid 4x4's on the road too.

[Sweeney]

If this does go ahead into full stream transport then so be it... but it's going to be an admin nightmare... Whether its a government department or a department of the dvla, they **** up on lots of things as it is how on earth will they keep on top of all the motorists. I know a lot of it will be automated but that doesn't mean there won't be errors and mistakes!

[The Dogfather]

Sorry KJ, it won't be based on earnings. It'll be a flat mileage rate based upon how busy the road is, the idea is to price cars off the road and to get people onto Public Transport.

[minidriver#1]

Sorry KJ, it won't be based on earnings. It'll be a flat mileage rate based upon how busy the road is, the idea is to price cars off the road and to get people onto Public Transport.

Are you telling me that people who have to make necessary journeys by car are going to have to pay the same as those better off financially? I find that hard to believe. *goes digging on the web*

edit: you might be right.

[S7JGW]

Im for the road charging in City centres etc like London, where there is no real need for people to have their cars there. It is the idea of rural charges where no good public transport links are available which is unfair i think also most of my driving is on rural roads lol :D :D
Jim

[The Dogfather]

Jim, I don't think rural roads will have charges as they aren't busy.....

[AndyP & Lenore]

Jim, I don't think rural roads will have charges as they aren't busy.....

Pffft! It takes me at least 5 minutes to get into Gala from my house some days. Shocking.:mad:

A.:D

[vintageb3]

Public transport? What public transport?

Do you mean buses that smell and trains that travel at 28mph?

Yeah...let's all sell our cars...we can rely on "public transport"

mark

[S7JGW]

Jim, I don't think rural roads will have charges as they aren't busy.....

O well that should be fine then.

[duncan]

Public transport? What public transport?

Do you mean buses that smell and trains that travel at 28mph?

Yeah...let's all sell our cars...we can rely on "public transport"

mark

Think you're missing the point :rolleyes: And way to stereotype.

[vintageb3]

Think you're missing the point :rolleyes: And way to stereotype.

I think its exactly the point.

mark

[duncan]

What, that ALL buses are smelly? Hmm.
Trains travel at 28 mph? Well, I must have been seeing things at work when I saw those 90 MPH speed restriction boards.

[The Dogfather]

If they use the money to invest in Public Transport then it'll be a good thing. Trouble is there's so much demand for investment in other areas, NHS, Schools and Security; its easy to see that the money will be sidetracked.

It would take a serious amount of investment to sort out the rail and buses so that they offer the same level of service as they do in Europe. IMHO of course.

[Gismo]

Hmm, my tuppence worth, i'm not against some form of restricting traffic in major city centres, but via another taxed payment scheme is not quite right in my book.
We already pay heavy taxes for the "pleasure" of driving our tin boxes around in fuel and car tax.
There will always be cases where people benefit and plenty more that are not, i'm not quite sure to cure it all, but i'm sure someday someone will listen to KJ ;)
Maybe just as soon as he sells his car, cycles to and from work between the hours of 11.30 and 19.30 :rolleyes:

[vintageb3]

What, that ALL buses are smelly? Hmm.
Trains travel at 28 mph? Well, I must have been seeing things at work when I saw those 90 MPH speed restriction boards.

Of course not ALL buses are smelly!...Just the U.K. ones...ask people who have to use them...like Kim's sister who uses three buses to go to work...and she complains about the fowl smells regularly.

So what speed do you think is fast for a train?..125mph?

Speed restriction boards?...Yup...as I said...this is exactly the problem...

mark

[duncan]

Of course not ALL buses are smelly!...Just the U.K. ones...ask people who have to use them...like Kim's sister who uses three buses to go to work...and she complains about the fowl smells regularly.

So what speed do you think is fast for a train?..125mph?

Speed restriction boards?...Yup...as I said...this is exactly the problem...

mark

I see reasonable debate is lost on you :rolleyes:

[vintageb3]

I see reasonable debate is lost on you :rolleyes:

hmmm...Is it?...want to "debate" that as well?

Your post kinda puzzles me to be honest Duncan. You seem to crave debate but your statement above is quite insulting and demeaning. I think if you approach debates from that angle...you will only get an "argument'. Not the same thing really. So your eye rolling is wasted on me sunshine...:p

I think that those that feel so strongly about the issues discussed in this thread and care about the environment and the capacity of our roads should be the first to sell their cars and buy a horse. This will immediately free up the valuable space I require to burn up the "three lane blacktop" and insure good roses for you all next year.

You seem to have bee in yer bunnets about getting people out of cars and onto public transport. I think its a great idea really!...but it will fall on its arse until we get a public transport system that is clean...on time...and is integrated throughout the UK. Do we have that in the UK?...errr NO!

We have something that is a little above what they have in Brazil.

Clean, on time public transport is what will get bums on seats...not what we have in this country at present. I know because I am forced into using what little we have on regular occasion.

Its crazy to think that we don't even have station at Edinburgh airport! I would think that would kill off a lot of the traffic crossing the Forth Road Bridge and every other road heading to Edinburgh of a day. How come it seems like every other city in the European Union had this sorted...and we don't? Did someone forget?

I would love to be able to get a train from Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh airport. What a hassle it would save!

Clean buses and fast trains are available in many parts of the world. I have used some amazing public transport systems to get around. It is a sheer joy using many of these transport systems....to the point of looking forward to the experience.

Many of the public transport systems in Europe are amazing and so easy to use! France and Germany have amazing trains and buses...and TRAMS!.

Trams?...what the hell happened to all our trams?...You just buy a day ticket...and jump on and off all day! Even the US has trams in a lot of cities.

The BART (Bay Area Rapid Transport) in San Francisco is utterly amazing and is good value for money. Oakland Airport into Oakland (35 minutes and only $2.70 single. Taxi is $45.00) The system is used to the limit every day and is very very clean...and runs on time. All the stops in the suburbs have huge car parks...and hardly anyone takes their car into the city if they work in an office or store.

Even the NYC underground has carriages that are cleaner than in Glasgow or London!

The bullet train in Japan is like an aircraft that you don't have to wait in a departure lounge for hours to catch. I believe the Japanese stole the technology from us? Kinda makes me wonder where our version went???? Buy a ticket and turn up on the platform to watch the carriage doors stop dead on two white lines marked on the edge of platform. Do the same here...and run up and down the platform guessing where the train will stop. No one in Japan flies between the cities any more.

Most of the time it travels at 180mph and its like floating on air in a big reclining Parker Knoll. I'm told that 220mph is the limit it will travel and only to make up time lost. Last year I saw a public sign in Shibuya station in Tokyo that apologised profusely for the delays in the previous 12 months. I laughed when I read the amount of time lost in delays. 11 seconds. Not only that...but it turned out that these 11 seconds were lost on different routes on different days covering the whole of Japan. Yes that's right...they add up tenths of seconds and count them up us delays!!! Wanna guess what late time we had on trains and busses in the UK? Could it be more than 11 seconds?

Last year, I was on a bullet train in Japan between Osaka and Tokyo doing a 180 odd mph and it was very quiet, clean and relaxing. I got on the train when it was scheduled...and got off it when they told me i would. The very next week I was on the Stanstead Express into London doing 30mph getting thrown about like a wet tracksuit! and was 6 minutes late. Speaks for itself really...

So I do think that this is exactly the point..i.e. We do not have public transport systems we can rely on in UK at this point in time...so we cannot expect more people to leave their car at home and use a bus or train.

Get to that point...and you will fill the public transport systems to capacity and free up the roads during rush hour.

mark

[The Dogfather]

Amen, Rev Vintage. You'll need to lie down after that, I'm with you 100% on the last statement.

Investment needs to come first, once people see there's an alternative then the roads will empty

[duncan]

Mark, the rest of your point is spot on, however, how else is one to take your previous post of all buses in the UK are smelly? I mean, thats hardly true. Unless of course you've actually travelled on every bus in the UK, then I take that back.

Yes, there are a lot of buses that aren't exactly brand spanking new, however, on the ones I have been on recently, Strathtay and Lothian, they were all fairly new, and kept clean inside.

In fact, it was about a year ago, I actually had to say to the driver that the bus smelt different. Why? It was a week old, and was still factory fresh!

As for Investment, no government will put the transport of this country above the need for spending on the NHS, and education amongst other things. Although the Crusades in the gulf could have gone a long way to helping the UK.

However, with diminishing oil supplies something needs done to achieve the level of service that world class countries provide. This investment will only come from congestion charging, like what has happened in London, and Singapore amongst other more enlightened places.

[vintageb3]

Mark, the rest of your point is spot on, however, how else is one to take your previous post of all buses in the UK are smelly? I mean, thats hardly true. Unless of course you've actually travelled on every bus in the UK, then I take that back.

Yes, there are a lot of buses that aren't exactly brand spanking new, however, on the ones I have been on recently, Strathtay and Lothian, they were all fairly new, and kept clean inside.

In fact, it was about a year ago, I actually had to say to the driver that the bus smelt different. Why? It was a week old, and was still factory fresh!

As for Investment, no government will put the transport of this country above the need for spending on the NHS, and education amongst other things. Although the Crusades in the gulf could have gone a long way to helping the UK.

However, with diminishing oil supplies something needs done to achieve the level of service that world class countries provide. This investment will only come from congestion charging, like what has happened in London, and Singapore amongst other more enlightened places.

I could write all week and expand on what I said in my short posts...but I thought by writing what I did...I would get my point across quickly and concisely for this forum. You will note that the only person that seemed to take exception to my short posts was you...so far.

I thank you Duncan for taking the time in writing a decent length post. How else was one to take your short replies to my recent posts? It seemed to me to be quick snaps directed at me....and this is why I snapped back. As you have taken the time to expand this time round...I will have to say that I agree with much of what you say.

It is true that I have not been on every bus in the UK...but I could ask you:

Have you been on all the same buses I have been on in the UK?

Same answer...No.

I have sampled bus companies transport all over the UK...and my view is that on the whole the level of service and cleanliness is very very poor in comparison with what I've experienced abroad.

But as you have suggested YMMV...

I agree wholeheartedly about the our role in the gulf and the money it has cost us...and will continue to cost us way past our time. Not only that...but I think we should all be ashamed of what went on. Bush and Blair should be hanged for their part in the killings in the gulf. We are talking murder here.

I haven't met anyone in the UK that actually agrees we should have gone into Iraq.

That money could have been to better use....yes on the health service...but across other important areas as well. Surely quality of life can be an important part of life as well?

The UK should back out of always being at the USA's side when the US feels the need to flex their military muscles. I'm in no way saying that if the cause is just...not to go in and kick some ass...but not just because Bush says so. We all know of the genocide that has been totally ignored in some countries in the world. I wonder if those countries had the "black stuff" how many more countries we would be helping gain a democratic government?

I was thinking on this transport matter today: Take France...draw a line up the middle of the country from top to bottom. Just one line. You will notice that there's a huge piece of France on each side of the red line...if that line was a high speed rail link...you will understand that mammoth task in sorting out a high speed rail link in that country...but they have managed it!...and had it for years. An it criss crosses France!

Now do the same for the UK. You will notice that there's much less ground on either side of the redline. Why hasn't the UK government put in place one very high speed rail link right up the country?...and have buses and other trains feeding it?

I think its because of what you say...spending too much on war machines and the like.

I drove into London twice last year in the van....I think it was as busy as it was before the congestion charging started. I think the only difference now is that Uncle Ken is making money out of people doing what they "need' to do. Where is that money going?

I still maintain that until we have good public transport systems like those in the other countries I've mentioned...we won't get people to stay out of cars. Charging them for the privilege of entering a city is only another way of the government raking in more money to build weapons of mass destruction.

And here's something else. Is it only me that seems to think that the UK must be the first to do anything within Europe...and go to ridiculous lengths to ensure that we take it further than any place in the world?

Thinking like that costs the country and its people money.

The rest of Europe ducks a lot of the crap that flies about...and gets on with improving their country.

So...I will say it again and I quote:

"Public transport? What public transport?

Do you mean buses that smell and trains that travel at 28mph?

Yeah...let's all sell our cars...we can rely on "public transport" "

See...a lot more concise

mark

[duncan]

Mark, there's a lot we agree with, and some that we don't.:)
Maybes I just don't get your snappy logic answers ;)

[Scottie]

about this road charging stuff

I think there has been mention on how good other European countries have a great public transport system mainly trains and buses etc etc. While this is true of parts of Germany France etc etc but have any of you been on the public transport make up the rest or Europe like the Baltics Romania Poland Finland:eek: :eek: oh and the trains in Russia-YIKES-

Now roads in the Europe and road charging. comparisons


Austria Belgium Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatia Denmark Finland France
Germany Ireland Italy Liechtenstein Luxembourg Macedonia The Former Yugoslav Republic Monaco Netherlands Poland Sweden Switzerland. We have taken our Caravan over and visted the countries above

Now take Austria you got the vignette

Italy have charging on some main routes ie. passing Milano

France now they just fcuk at their tolls all the time cost a fortune to travel through france and mega mega busy.

Holland passing Den Hagg YIKES.


when was the last time you were on the autobahn in Germany crap roads one lane is nose to tail, nose to tail with lorries then you have 2 other lanes jam packed and let me tell you not everyone is taking their ace public transport system cause the roads are as busy as ours in fact they are worse heading down into Munich on the Koblenz Rd well it is just a car park.

Now the road out from Zeebrugge heading towards to Germany now that road is just awful so busy with traffic and the hot weather the ruts on the roads is just awful.

So what I am saying is having ace public transport will not ease road congestion. It hasn't as far as I can see.

Also funny thing was just a week past Sunday night/Monday morning I was taking my Mum and her German friend Rosemary to the Airport off to Romania and we were just talking about Germany and public transport and Rosemary was just saying that the trains that run through Europe are good and on time but the trains that make up the infrastructure of Germany the country it self and horrible and always late.

Now take the Rep Ireland a country that has made vast and I mean vast improvements in their roads and the road infrastructure in the past 12 years all funded by the European Union. Only 1 road that we had to pay to use was passing Dublin. But I guy was asking me how much was it to tax my Jeep I told him £300 rising to £400 next year he said for the same vehicle over there it would be over 1000 euros. The cost of vehicles in the rep Ireland I don't know how they can afford them same as in Denmark Sweden Holland etc etc.

Maybe the answer is to price the consumer out of the market.

[duncan]

You're right Fi, that road to Zeebrugge is a nightmare - I missed the turn off and ended up taking back roads to get back on the main road!

Didn't find the tolls on the French Autoroute too bad. I looked back the Visa statements from the time I used them last in 2005, and it cost me £16 to go from Belgium to Switzerland and back, on roads that were pretty empty, and had a much better speed limit system than the UK.

Does the caravan make that much of a difference?

[Scottie]

You're right Fi, that road to Zeebrugge is a nightmare - I missed the turn off and ended up taking back roads to get back on the main road!

Didn't find the tolls on the French Autoroute too bad. I looked back the Visa statements from the time I used them last in 2005, and it cost me £16 to go from Belgium to Switzerland and back, on roads that were pretty empty, and had a much better speed limit system than the UK.

Does the caravan make that much of a difference?

yikes yes it does we travelled from Monaco up to vine yard country then to Paris then to the ferry X2 using the routex card cost a fortune.

not to mention the difference the caravan makes on the ferry.

Roysth ferry with caravan crossing July roughly £700 - £1000

Ireland roughly £270

Dover over £300 -£400

Hawrich over £300 - £400

Newcastle over £300 - £400

Oh and this is booking through the Caravan Club discount

now lets not get started on minging ferries.

[vintageb3]

Mark, there's a lot we agree with, and some that we don't.:)
Maybes I just don't get your snappy logic answers ;)

Don't feel bad about that...the ward sister here at the mental home says the exact same thing:eek:

mark

[vintageb3]

Fiona...

I have traveled on many of the roads in Europe and Scandinavia as well.

But we always travel at night and I'm always sleeping in a bunk.;)

I think the pay roads are on the most part great..and we all seem to get a sleep whilst travelling on them. Roads in Italy are the worst...but still not as bad as the UK.

What i mean is...we use the same UK buses on the continent as we do in Europe...and we all struggle to sleep while we are driving on UK roads.

The only time I drink is when I'm on a UK tour...and I use alcohol as a sedative. It works to a degree...but its not a great sleep...

I'm noy 100% about this...but I think the road tax is less in the European countries than it is here...so paying tolls doesn't hit the pocket as much and i don't think the Europeans mind so much as fuel and every other area of their tax system is fairer.

The M6 is hell to try and get a sleep on...and I hardly notice how bad it is when driving on it in the van...but a bus can start to sway when it gets caught in the tramlines on the inside lane.

Anyway I will be getting a taste of the M6 tomorrow night as we have to catch a 3.30am ferry for the IoM.

Straight off the ferry at the other side into a full days work...

So off to bed for me now!

mark

[Scottie]

Fiona...

I have traveled on many of the roads in Europe and Scandinavia as well.

But we always travel at night and I'm always sleeping in a bunk.;)

I think the pay roads are on the most part great..and we all seem to get a sleep whilst travelling on them. Roads in Italy are the worst...but still not as bad as the UK.

What i mean is...we use the same UK buses on the continent as we do in Europe...and we all struggle to sleep while we are driving on UK roads.

The only time I drink is when I'm on a UK tour...and I use alcohol as a sedative. It works to a degree...but its not a great sleep...

I'm noy 100% about this...but I think the road tax is less in the European countries than it is here...so paying tolls doesn't hit the pocket as much and i don't think the Europeans mind so much as fuel and every other area of their tax system is fairer.

The M6 is hell to try and get a sleep on...and I hardly notice how bad it is when driving on it in the van...but a bus can start to sway when it gets caught in the tramlines on the inside lane.

Anyway I will be getting a taste of the M6 tomorrow night as we have to catch a 3.30am ferry for the IoM.

Straight off the ferry at the other side into a full days work...

So off to bed for me now!

mark
Never have a problem sleeping on the M6 myself.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Towing our rig with the big twin axle van on the back soon lets you know the good roads from the bad roads.:rolleyes: trust me on this one.

The roads in Europe are way worse than the UK trust me on this one.

The R and alot of the old N roads in Rep Ireland are so bad so bad that we have to remove the jocky wheel and our rig sits level.

Must be a crap bus without any air suspension if your able tell the different
quality of the roads.

Unless your going over the St Bernard Pass in to Aosta rather than through the tunnel then yeh sure you will notice the tight tight corners you should go that road with a caravan on the back:eek: :eek:

Now the Brenner Pass is a great road brilliant for hauling up that and passing all the buses and lorries puffing to get up it.

[S7JGW]

Ive driven and towed on a few roads abroad and with my experience the French toll roads were worth the money. Pay the toll and you got a good road where you can get your foot down also the speed limit for towing is the same as a single car, only thing youve got to watch out for is in poor conditions like rain etc the speed limit is reduced. The worst roads i towed abroad on was the German roads, you could have lost a mini or even a MINI in some of the holes in the road. Another thing that bugged me about the German roads was that you were not alowed to overtake when towing, driving lorrys or busses between certain times of day, so we were stuck in the slow lane in a que of lorrys and caravans for ages going at about 40mph in the worst lane with all the holes.:mad: :mad:
I have to agree with Fiona about some of the roads in Ireland too, dont know what the R class road really stands for but it must be something like Rough, N must mean Not even really a road. Sometimes thought it would be smoother towing through the feilds :D
Jim

[Scottie]

Ive driven and towed on a few roads abroad and with my experience the French toll roads were worth the money. Pay the toll and you got a good road where you can get your foot down also the speed limit for towing is the same as a single car, only thing youve got to watch out for is in poor conditions like rain etc the speed limit is reduced. The worst roads i towed abroad on was the German roads, you could have lost a mini or even a MINI in some of the holes in the road. Another thing that bugged me about the German roads was that you were not alowed to overtake when towing, driving lorrys or busses between certain times of day, so we were stuck in the slow lane in a que of lorrys and caravans for ages going at about 40mph in the worst lane with all the holes.:mad: :mad:
I have to agree with Fiona about some of the roads in Ireland too, dont know what the R class road really stands for but it must be something like Rough, N must mean Not even really a road. Sometimes thought it would be smoother towing through the feilds :D
Jim

we always overtake in Germany;) and never stick to the speed limits.

the European country that you can tow the fastest on is Belgium.:D :D

I would need to look out my European Caravan Club book to find all the correct towing limits. Sometime they are not what you think.;)

Did you know that it is now required in Austria that you have to drive with your lights on dip at all times or you get a 15 euro fine.

[S7JGW]

Didnt know that Belgium was the fastest, we never really stick to the limits any way. The lights thing doesnt really bother me cause when im towing i usually put on the lights any way just habbit as it is a policy at work to drive with dipped headlamps on at all times.
When we were abroad we used the Rosyth to Zeebrugge Superfast ferry then to Interlaken in Switzerland stoppin off in Luxembourg on the way. Was a good holiday, would like to do again but take the MINI next time.:D
Jim

[Scottie]

Didnt know that Belgium was the fastest, we never really stick to the limits any way. The lights thing doesnt really bother me cause when im towing i usually put on the lights any way just habbit as it is a policy at work to drive with dipped headlamps on at all times.
When we were abroad we used the Rosyth to Zeebrugge Superfast ferry then to Interlaken in Switzerland stoppin off in Luxembourg on the way. Was a good holiday, would like to do again but take the MINI next time.:D
Jim

we always say that wish we had the Mini with us.:D won't be able to say that no more as we don't have a Mini any longer;)

Have used a Caravan site just out side Interlaken enroute to Jungfrau last time we were took a helicopter ride up to the top Jungfrau then over some of the lakes cost a fair bob but was well worth it.

The Grossglocknerstrasse in Austria now there is a road worthy of a Mini.:cool:

[vintageb3]

now lets not get started on minging ferries.

Oh let's do!:mad:

Just back from the Isle of Man...we used Steampacket Ferries out of Heysham. We arrived at 2.00am for a 3.30am crossing to find out that the ferry company had no booking for us and the van. At check in, the guy told us he found a cancelled booking for us as foot passengers only. This was no good...as we were driving all the gear.

We eventually got someone out of their bed at the Peel Festival and they called the guy standing at the desk and sorted it out...so we got on.

The ferry was stinking!!!!! We complained and were put up to first class...and that was a joke to be honest. The bikers on their way to IoM 100 years TT were all drunk...but very well behaved. Even they were complaining about the ferry.

Then we started getting calls from the two sound guys that had been told to go to Liverpool to a Steampacket ferry there.

Long story short...no one was even at the ferry terminal in Liverpool....and we then found out that they should have been on the ferry from Heysham that left half an hour before us!

So...they had to drive back to Glasgow...and get on a stand by for a flight to Douglas. Luckily two people didn't turn up for the flight...so our guys got on. They were not at all amused as you can imagine.

When we got to the festival...we were shown paper work that proved that the ferry company had balls'ed everything up.

I personally wouldn't use them in future...if there's an alternative ferry.

In fact I won't be doing what we did over the last few days...it rarely happens that we have to drive gear...and we usually travel with the band.

I didn't get more than 3 hours sleep over the last three days.

But at least i was on the island to get a feel of the TT on it centenary :)

mark