Back on my Summer R95's and not really happy

[vintageb3]

:(

I've had R81 15" Hole'ies on all winter with Vredstein M&S and enjoyed every second driving the car. I didn't think they looked all that bad on the car either....but not amazing looking.

I put on my nice newly refurbished 18" R95's back on today..and WOW...the car looked so amazing! It looks nice and chunky and sporty again.

BUT!...I'm all depressed after being out for a drive this afternoon.

The thing that I'm missing is the torque and acceleration of the 15"'s. The car took off in any gear when you hit the gas. I've been running on ordinary fuel all winter...didn't see the point of wasting money on the faster stuff...but last week I filled the car with V power...and my neck was getting broke with the extra power.

The car was actually sitting lower with the 15"s (I know this because I can now drive over speed bumps in my area with my 18"'s that I bottomed the front spoiler lip out on with the 15"'s.)

The road holding is "OK" with the 18"'s...I can still throw the car about...but not as much as the 15"'s (but the 15"'s rolled a bit on the corner's) All winter I have had near go kart handling especially after having upper and lower struts bars fitted.

I just feel I've thrown away all the extra handling of the struts and the power of the 15"'s away for a wheel that only looks good.

R81 Good points:

1. Light as hell!...at least half the weight of the 18"'s
2. Lower to the ground.
3 Go kart handling..slightly better grip on the tyre but soft side wall could be stiffer.
4. Comfortable ride.
5. Cheap to put tyres on.

R81 Bad points"

1. Don't look all that great.
2. Non runflat with all the hassle that can go with that...Blow out/puncture
3. Tramline like hell.
4. Narrow looking wheel.

R95 Good Points:

1. Runflat tyre...no puncture/blowout hassle.
2. Look good.
3. Fill the arch better.
4. In theory..save fuel by being a bigger wheel/tyre.(Marginal??)

R95 Bad Points:

1. Less acceleration.
2. Less grip on Runflat
3. VERY HARD AND BUMPY RIDE.
>>EDIT<<
4. Less efficient braking (just remembered that)

I've heard that 16" wheels are the best for the Mini but I can't see a MINI wheel that is 7" wide in a 16"...

I'm not really a speed freak...I blast through the low gears to enjoy the acceleration...then drop into 6th most of the time:D...but I do love corners!!!

What should I do?

mark

[sedgie]

Mark....if you like the smaller wheels better then go for 16's bugger how the car looks....go with the drive!:)

I know with my 18's...non run flats....bloody hell i need a sports bra on all the time!:p

But i'm used to them now...so i'll sacrifice the comfort:clown:

But if i could find 16's for winter use...i'd be a happy bunny!!:)

Lesley

[The Dogfather]

Get some 16", I'm considering going for 16s on the Brabus because the roads around Durham are so poor. What I loose in looks I'll gain in handling.

[vintageb3]

quote:Originally posted by sedgie

Mark....if you like the smaller wheels better then go for 16's bugger how the car looks....go with the drive!:)

I know with my 18's...non run flats....bloody hell i need a sports bra on all the time!:p

Lesley


Errr...so do I !:clown:

Mr Man Boob!

[vintageb3]

Today Kim and I went for a run up the A9.

First roundabout we hit I threw the car round it...and something just didn't feel right.

It felt like the tyres were climbing over the sidewalls. So the next corner we came to I powered on and threw the car round that...and again same feeling and it felt as though I should be getting screaming tyres...but instead it felt as though I was under powered. I came off the corner with no power under my foot.

So I switched off the traction control. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::clown::clown::clown ::clown:

Very next roundabout...and there it was....Power!!!! GRIP!!! and almost a hint of a squeal!

The car horsed round the roundabout to the point where I passed three cars on the roundabout...I felt my strut braces again...and the advantage of the wider tyre.

Can't believe that changing a wheel could alter the traction control that much. I must admit I never noticed this when I had the R95's on last year...but maybe with the 15's I got to know the car better. It may sound weird...but I can actually feel the extra weight of the wheels

Still missing the acceleration against the 15" 's a bit...but once my ALTA CAI is fitted ;)...maybe that loss will be made up again.

Happier today...will keep traction control for the wet roads me thinks.

mark

[illegalhunter]

The r95s with runflats are as hard as feck but they are the muts , decisions decisions lol

[ELFMAN]

The big wheels and low-profile runflats, being very stiff and with a hard compound will probably trigger your Traction Control on damp/greasy roads sooner than a more 'forgiving' higher profile/softer (and therefore grippier in those conditions) tyre. As I've said before, there's a downside to big wheels and runflats on a MINI in everyday driving - you pays your money... My Minilite 16's & Runflats do me fine ALL year round - and I haven't even got around to trying non-runflats yet. My traction control, when pressing on in damp/greasy conditions, doesn't interfere too much, and when it does, it's generally pretty helpful. Only time it bugs me is when getting away quickly from standstill, when it can sometimes bog you down - I tend to switch it off in town and back on when out on the road, as it also has the DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) as part of the setup - handy if misjudge a corner......

Tony (Minimad) has just fitted a set of lovely lightweight OZ 17's with Toyo's and is raving about how much better they are than his O.E. S Spokes & Runflats. The weight of the new wheel helps, but mainly it's in the rubber!

[Duncan Stewart]

You canny beat a set of MINI 15 inch wheels :D :p I've tried bigger wheels but I prefer 15s.
I'm running a nice set of "rocket" wheels just now but my favourites are the 7 holes - very light and easy to clean

[Burple]

quote:Originally posted by Duncan Stewart

You canny beat a set of MINI 15 inch wheels :D :p I've tried bigger wheels but I prefer 15s.
I'm running a nice set of "rocket" wheels just now but my favourites are the 7 holes - very light and easy to clean


I've got to say... I've just put the summer 17s back on, and I never thought I'd notice too much difference, being a One and all, but I could get a fair wriggle on with the wee 15s that came with the car. It's DEFINITELY slower on the take off with the bigger ones back on, and loads more road noise :D But that's not a complaint! I just need to wear these tyres out now to justify a nice set of Eagle F1s or summat :D:D

..and get the car chipped... and then no more mods... for a bit.....

:D

[sh@z]

You'd definintely notice a difference mainly due to the weight, especially as the JCW wheels are pretty heavy as far as 18s go, and then putting runflats on them, which at a low profile are very unforgiving in terms of ride. I'd recommend you try some non runflats as the sidewall (as minimal as it is) will not be as rock hard as the runflats and give you better handling and responsiveness.

Other option being getting a set of lightweight wheels, like OZ superleggeras which are some of the lightest wheels around, but pricey... but thats an even more expensive option :p

[vintageb3]

quote:Originally posted by ELFMAN

The big wheels and low-profile runflats, being very stiff and with a hard compound will probably trigger your Traction Control on damp/greasy roads sooner than a more 'forgiving' higher profile/softer (and therefore grippier in those conditions) tyre. As I've said before, there's a downside to big wheels and runflats on a MINI in everyday driving - you pays your money... My Minilite 16's & Runflats do me fine ALL year round - and I haven't even got around to trying non-runflats yet. My traction control, when pressing on in damp/greasy conditions, doesn't interfere too much, and when it does, it's generally pretty helpful. Only time it bugs me is when getting away quickly from standstill, when it can sometimes bog you down - I tend to switch it off in town and back on when out on the road, as it also has the DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) as part of the setup - handy if misjudge a corner......

Tony (Minimad) has just fitted a set of lovely lightweight OZ 17's with Toyo's and is raving about how much better they are than his O.E. S Spokes & Runflats. The weight of the new wheel helps, but mainly it's in the rubber!


Mr Elfman...and Mr Low

So I'm not going crazy then!...I really feel the difference between the wheels. Its as you say Euan...the bigger wheel is triggering the Traction Control...even in the dry when driven hard. Its a really weird feeling and not one that you would automatically recognise as being TC related. It does feel like the tyre is riding on the sidewalls. I now know that its the brakes coming on and off very quickly to make sure you get round the corner...and in this respect...it works! I remember when I got the car last year that I decided to turn a corner at the very last minute....so braked and turned in...I felt the brakes go on and off under my foot...and I did make the turn OK. But if you have your foot on the gas...you can't feel the brakes go on and off

Ewan...so 15" to 17"...and the feel the difference as well?

Had the car out tonight...and switched the traction control off as soon as I got in the car...I'm happier now than before.

I spoke to a mate of mine who is a traffic cop. He is of course a highly trained driver. I started telling him about the cornering on the 18" 's and before I got to mentioning it...he said "Switch off the traction control...the car is driving you round corners instead of you driving the car round corners...there's very good reasons for having Traction Control...but when you want to corner hard and drive for "fun"...you need to switch it off...use it on bad roads in the wet"

He told me a few months ago...that a colleague of his was being trained to drive a new 5 Series BMW. When this guy had done his advanced training..he was taught what we are all taught...."If a car goes into a skid...remove the cause...and steer into the skid" That is: If you are braking, stop braking...if you are accelerating, stop accelerating...and steer into the skid.

The first thing he was told do when he sat in the BMW 5 with DSC was to forget his training if the car went into a skid. He was told to floor the gas and point the car in the direction he wanted to go in. It turns out that the Police had contacted BMW and asked how they should be training their officers to drive the new 5 after noting that following normal procedures cars were lying in fields and the adopted horse it and steer had been working. BMW refused to comment on how the car should be driven as they did not want any come back if the advice caused incidents.

However, this young officer was travelling at high speed in training...came round a tight corner and hit gravel. He started travelling sideways and lost the car into trees. The report by the officer teaching read that the young officer had adopted normal skid avoidance which does not work in a car

[vintageb3]

quote:Originally posted by sh@z

You'd definintely notice a difference mainly due to the weight, especially as the JCW wheels are pretty heavy as far as 18s go,



Sh@z...i have to ask...why in hell did JCW design a wheel so heavy?..if the are in the "Make MINI go faster business"

It beggers belief!...the R95 is only a cosmetic add on in reality...

Thanks

mark

[sh@z]

Yep it sure is, plus cost is also an issue... it's not cheap to have lightweight wheels that both look good and are very strong. But its not as difficult to make a good looking wheel, which is strong when not totally concerned about weight (obviously they don't want to make it ridiculous, but some compromise has to be struck when all manufacturers make parts liek this)

If the JCW wheels were a 'performance' modification, then why did they spec them with runflats when they KNOW this will be detrimental to the feel and the performance further due to the stiffness and weight.

It's the reason why I have paid extra for the 19" wheels im getting for my RX8, which with tyres on them will weight significantly less than the standard 18" wheels on it at the mo.

[ELFMAN]

Mark, I wouldn't have thought your TC would be cutting in THAT much in the DRY - mainly in wet/greasy/damp conditions for the afforementioned wheel/tyre reasons. I can tan the *rse off the car in the dry on country roads with TC on, and it doesn't cut in - and I have 210BHP on 195/16 runflats......

As far as I know (I may be wrong and somebody cleverer than me can tell us), Traction Control cuts the POWER from the Engine until it senses traction is regained, electronically, not by utilising the brakes, so you'll notice it when you have your foot on the gas as intermittent drop-offs in power and the wee light on the Rev Counter will blink/flash when it's triggered. When you try to pull away from the lights or a junction by flooring it, it'll cut in and you may 'bog down' (so if you're trying to get your fastest 0-60 time, turn the TC off and use your right foot to modulate the power delivery!). Anti-Lock Brakes will give you a 'pattering/drumming' feel through the brake pedal when you brake hard which I think is what you felt when you braked late to make that corner. 'DSC' kicks in to help prevent a skid and (I think) uses the electronics to provide braking on individual wheels when the 'brain' senses a skid might be about to happen - but I reckon I've only had that once, and I was to busy praying to register what it felt like.....

One thing I must say (and please don't take this the wrong way) is that if you're triggering the gizmos like that in wet and dry, you MIGHT just be pushing a bit too hard in the first place - if you're right on the edge, all you need is a bit of diesel or some mud on a bend/roundabout and no amount of TC/DSC/Anti-Lock will keep your fab S out of the undergrowth and you out of casualty - the MINI's brilliant, but “Ye cannae change the laws o' physics!” as Scotty from Star Trek was wont to say.

[vintageb3]

quote:Originally posted by ELFMAN

Mark, I wouldn't have thought your TC would be cutting in THAT much in the DRY - mainly in wet/greasy/damp conditions for the afforementioned wheel/tyre reasons. I can tan the *rse off the car in the dry on country roads with TC on, and it doesn't cut in - and I have 210BHP on 195/16 runflats......

Hi da Elfman. It is the TC...it is way too sensitive with those wheels on...which is actually a good thing...means that you won't kill yourself. I never felt the TC coeming in with the 15's...not once. My thoughts at this time are that the extra weight of the wheels is the cause of the problem and the way I'm driving of course. The TC is indeed cutting the power and its this point that causes the weird sensation.

One thing I must say (and please don't take this the wrong way) is that if you're triggering the gizmos like that in wet and dry, you MIGHT just be pushing a bit too hard in the first place - if you're right on the edge, all you need is a bit of diesel or some mud on a bend/roundabout and no amount of TC/DSC/Anti-Lock will keep your fab S out of the undergrowth and you out of casualty - the MINI's brilliant, but “Ye cannae change the laws o' physics!” as Scotty from Star Trek was wont to say.


>>A. I take what you say and agree with it totally. I drive like and old man most of the time. I'm not really a boy racer. I don't get silly with other cars around. I know what my limits are...and the limits of the car...and I'm well within both those limits in the way i'm driving. To be honest the car is handling very well now with the added struts....to the point where I think its close to a tin roof (OK maybe a One or diesel then:eek::eek:) I'm not for one minute thinking that it handles better than your car with its spec but I'm now happier knowing if i need/want to drive around corners like a MINI should I can do it without the car saying..."err...No you won't"...and this is what's happening.

I'm getting 32MPG...that kinda tells you how I drive on the whole.

I know where you were coming from with your post mate...I thank you and my MINI thanks you ;):D

mark

[ELFMAN]

Cheers Mark, I was trying to figure out what your systems might be doing - took me a while to put it down so it nearly made sense. I always thought you were a pretty sensible driver - and you were maybe just having a mad turn! My excuse is my ongoing (since I was 35) Mid-Life Crisis.

I'm getting about 24mpg on (mainly) short urban journeys to & from work.... and only around 18(!) when using the power. I'm looking forward to seeing what it'll do on the constant speed run to Oxford... probably 26.....

AHA! Here's a thought which just came to me... could your Strut Braces be causing more understeer and triggering the TC? I've read that stiffening the front suspension with thicker Anti-Roll bars can increase understeer as the forces aren't absorbed by any roll, so can load up the outside tyre and cause it to reach its limit of adhesion and push wide = undesteer. Presumably the 'braces would have a similar effect - and the big wheels with the low profiles and hard rubber might be magnifying it. But then again, you'd think the greater contact patch would compensate for it. Did you notice the TC 'problem' with the big wheels BEFORE you fitted the strut braces, or only SINCE you fitted them? I have a JCW Strut Brace, but haven't had any adverse reactions. Maybe the taller sidewalls/softer rubber of your 15's dealt with it better? It's just a theory though and I could be talking pure crap. Come on all you 'Techie Boffins' in NMS land - gie's a haun' here!!!!

[stoney]

quote:Originally posted by ELFMAN

.

I'm getting about 24mpg on (mainly) short urban journeys to & from work.... and only around 18(!) when using the power. I'm looking forward to seeing what it'll do on the constant speed run to Oxford... probably 26.....




that is shoking mpg :eek::eek:i went 2 sunderland on sunday and was not a good boy at all was over taking every thing i could and having a go with any one that wanted 2 try :p and over about 160 miles i got 29.5 ish both ways 1 tank of shell and a tank of bp high grade petrol if i sit at speed limits i can get it up to about 35 mpg ish



mark as for ur t/c i find mine kicks in erly more often than not i have 17" wheels on mine i just turn it off when dry and let it rip mind u never once kicked in on sunday and it was getting a good bashing

[vintageb3]

quote:Originally posted by ELFMAN

Cheers Mark, I was trying to figure out what your systems might be doing - took me a while to put it down so it nearly made sense. I always thought you were a pretty sensible driver - and you were maybe just having a mad turn! My excuse is my ongoing (since I was 35) Mid-Life Crisis.

Oh...I'm going through that as well...hence a vert I'm told:clown:

I'm getting about 24mpg on (mainly) short urban journeys to & from work.... and only around 18(!) when using the power. I'm looking forward to seeing what it'll do on the constant speed run to Oxford... probably 26.....

That's not good!...I thought the JCW conversion etc helped fuel consumption?

AHA! Here's a thought which just came to me... could your Strut Braces be causing more understeer and triggering the TC? I've read that stiffening the front suspension with thicker Anti-Roll bars can increase understeer as the forces aren't absorbed by any roll, so can load up the outside tyre and cause it to reach its limit of adhesion and push wide = undesteer. Presumably the 'braces would have a similar effect - and the big wheels with the low profiles and hard rubber might be magnifying it. But then again, you'd think the greater contact patch would compensate for it. Did you notice the TC 'problem' with the big wheels BEFORE you fitted the strut braces, or only SINCE you fitted them? I have a JCW Strut Brace, but haven't had any adverse reactions. Maybe the taller sidewalls/softer rubber of your 15's dealt with it better? It's just a theory though and I could be talking pure crap. Come on all you 'Techie Boffins' in NMS land - gie's a haun' here!!!!


In a way you could be right....the struts could be causing understeer that's upsetting the TC...but I'm not getting alarmed about understeer without TC on. I mean...the car in my opinion is no where near understeer when the power is being cut...and no where near understeer with the TC off. I would admit that if i was getting understeer in the dry I think I would be being a clown and driving like a maniac. Driving in that manner would be OK off road or in a car park in the snow...but not at the risk of others..or my car...

See...I am getting old.;)

Thanks for your thoughts Euan...it is helping me understand the problem better...

mark

[vintageb3]

quote:Originally posted by stone


quote:Originally posted by ELFMAN

.

I'm getting about 24mpg on (mainly) short urban journeys to & from work.... and only around 18(!) when using the power. I'm looking forward to seeing what it'll do on the constant speed run to Oxford... probably 26.....




that is shoking mpg :eek::eek:i went 2 sunderland on sunday and was not a good boy at all was over taking every thing i could and having a go with any one that wanted 2 try :p and over about 160 miles i got 29.5 ish both ways 1 tank of shell and a tank of bp high grade petrol if i sit at speed limits i can get it up to about 35 mpg ish



mark as for ur t/c i find mine kicks in erly more often than not i have 17" wheels on mine i just turn it off when dry and let it rip mind u never once kicked in on sunday and it was getting a good bashing


A HA! Rob!

Wish I could find someone else with the same wheels and set up as mine...and ask them if they find the same thing with TC

Thanks

mark

[ELFMAN]

Ah well, so much for my latest theory. I'm all done on the suspension front - can't think of anything else!

As for mpg - my car's 'on the choke' and only reaches operating temperature half way to work, and the same on the way home, with the odd full throttle moment, so it never gets 'into its stride' mpg-wise. The 18mpg was when 'showing off' the JCW conversion to mate Bill on the great roads around Blyth Bridge/Biggar etc... self-expanatory really. I don't have a wee computer in my car - only Outside Temp/MPH display - so all my mpg figures are 'guestimates'. On the Oxford Run, it'll get a chance to run constantly for long periods, so I'll get a better idea then. I'm taking a petrol can in the boot... just in case.

Better mpg from the JCW? I had heard this on a MINI DVD documentary and a book.... Peak power at 6950rpm as opposed to 6,000 + better Air Filter + bigger Supercharger spinning faster + better flowing Head = more air going in needing more fuel to make that bigger bang. (ie 210bhp from a wee 1.6 litre unit) So I can't really see how it'll 'out-mpg' the same engine in a lesser state of tune, no matter how clever the electronics are. It's always been a thirsty/fairly 'smoggy' engine - two of the reasons it's been binned in favour of the new BMW/Peugeot Turbo unit. But hey, I'm no expert!

[vintageb3]

quote:Originally posted by ELFMAN

Ah well, so much for my latest theory. I'm all done on the suspension front - can't think of anything else!

As for mpg - my car's 'on the choke' and only reaches operating temperature half way to work, and the same on the way home, with the odd full throttle moment, so it never gets 'into its stride' mpg-wise. The 18mpg was when 'showing off' the JCW conversion to mate Bill on the great roads around Blyth Bridge/Biggar etc... self-expanatory really. I don't have a wee computer in my car - only Outside Temp/MPH display - so all my mpg figures are 'guestimates'. On the Oxford Run, it'll get a chance to run constantly for long periods, so I'll get a better idea then. I'm taking a petrol can in the boot... just in case.

Better mpg from the JCW? I had heard this on a MINI DVD documentary and a book.... Peak power at 6950rpm as opposed to 6,000 + better Air Filter + bigger Supercharger spinning faster + better flowing Head = more air going in needing more fuel to make that bigger bang. (ie 210bhp from a wee 1.6 litre unit) So I can't really see how it'll 'out-mpg' the same engine in a lesser state of tune, no matter how clever the electronics are. It's always been a thirsty/fairly 'smoggy' engine - two of the reasons it's been binned in favour of the new BMW/Peugeot Turbo unit. But hey, I'm no expert!


Euan...What I meant was...if its highly tuned...and you drive it like a old granny...it should be better on fuel than my car when i drive it in the same manner.

Bey its doing better than you think...or mines doing worse that I think....hmmm

mark

[ELFMAN]

Not sure about that, mark. I still reckon the Tuned version(s) of our rather 'basic' Chrysler lump will use more fuel whatever driving style you adopt. I mean, a 'racing' engine is VERY highly tuned, but even if you drove it 'Granny Stylee', the fuel consumption would be worse than a 'cooking' version of the same engine driven similarly. I know some of the more modern engines can produce more power and torque and get almsot as good consumption as their 'lesser' brethren, but this is usually through being able to utilise a combination of things like variable valve timing and more 'sophisticated' ECU's etc. I'd need to check the 'Official' (pinch of salt time) BMW figures and compare the standard S with the Works 210, but I'd bet that the JCW, by its very nature, uses more juice everywhere. If the standard MPG wasn't better that one which produces 30% more power and nearly 20% more torque, in similar conditions, it would be very inefficient - if anything, it'll be set up with a balance for economy as much as outright grunt, whereas the JCW is set up for performance first and economy..... well... somewhere. The only way I see the JCW could possibly benefit mpg is by using the extra Torque to take a higher gear and reduce the revs in any given situation, but I'm not convinced. In the (adopts 'Cockney' accent) “Auulden Dayyyyyzzz”, you could release more power and probably not damage economy simply because things like cylinder heads/induction/exhaust systems were very inefficient (the old Minis for instance), so there was more scope for improvement, whereas today even 'basic' models' engines are built to much higher tolerances and are much more efficient, but with less room for obvious improvement because of that.

In today's 'Green Climate', the rise of the 'Performance Diesel' is, IMHO, proof that the it's the only way to get better performance without incurring penalties at the pumps/icecaps - otherwise why are so many manufacturers investing so much money in their development? Quite a few manufacturers these days actually introduce a 'performance diesel' version of a new model before the petrol equivalent. They're even using diesel power in Sports/Le Mans Racers! (Audi) The forthcoming 'COOPER D' will have 'only' 108bhp, but as much TORQUE as the new Turbo COOPER S, but has a (quoted) top mpg of 64!!!!!! Different approach - same 'A to B' time.

So who knows? Here's an idea, next run, we'll both drive like Grannies and see who runs out of gas first!!! Bet it's me. Anyway, Tea Break over - back to work. See Ya.